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Quote:
Your 1150 is NOT obsolete, I think I may have not really thought out my wording. I meant to say that you won't see as significant of an increase between an i5 and an i7 as what you saw moving to an SSD - the heavy storage reliance of video editing makes the perceptible feel much more biased towards storage upgrades.
Also, although you can't go for the massive amounts of additional cores that the 2011-v3 socket will allow, the new Skylake (not released quite yet) CPUs are also LGA1150, and while they don't look like they will see huge performance gains over Haswell, they do gain some efficiency. And you will see a difference moving to an i7, as I said, just not night-and-day like changing your storage media.
Just really, really don't get an nVidia card for rendering performance, even in software (like Premier) that supports it - nVidia's CUDA codecs can be really horrendous in terms of quality. Using OpenCL on nVidia cards yields better quality, but is not nearly as speedy or as well optimized as AMD GPUs.
If one plans on using a computer for ones work or hobby, it behooves one to know at least keep on top of PC hardware. I recommend something like the Linustechtips youtube channel for quick and easy to digest tech knowledge that will stick in your brain and keep you informed of the general specs you will need for whatever PC you happen to require.
Cheers!
Thanks I appreciate the tips including RAM drive. I can't keep up with the hardware world so I appreciate your advice. My Haswell scoket 1150 confusion comes from trying to find my way around the Intel website. In terms of my upgrade path it is currently limited to the Haswell range.
http://processormatch.intel.com/Processors/CompatibleProcessors?componentName=dh87mc
The newer i7s (6&8 core) are Haswell-E which is not 1150. But they include more powerful GPU (All the above are limited to the 4600 GPU - but other i7s go up to the 6100 gpu)
Skylake looks like it will be socket 1151 - then there is Cannonlake maybe next year.
As far as I can tell the Broadwell series due this year are also socket 1150.
Socket 1150 upgrades still appear to be limited but I may be wrong so would appreciate any other advice you might have.
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Thanks guys - this is the most informative info I have seen.
EKSVid
Sorry I missed your thread. Interesting that everyone recommended you get an NVIDIA GTX 960'
I agree Cyberlink should give us recommended and minimum configs. Like HD vs 4k. Too many users on this forum complaining about PDR13 have been advised to get a new PC.
If PDR13 can use 12 cores then more is definately better!
I have the software to create a RAM drive but not sure how to use it. If I save my PDR13 project to a folder on a RAM drive will it make a big difference? What about shadow files?
tomasc
Wow that is the first benchmark I have seen for Intel Quick Sync. Thanks. It makes the question of adding discrete GPU to my Intel system even more confusing.
Salamand3r
Interesting reasons for choosing AMD over NVIDIA GPUs. That explains compatibility issues with PDR13. Also the info we get on Adobe Premier hardware benchmarks may be misleading for PDR13 due to Adobes use of CUDA vs Open GL. Finally we have some valuable (albeit costly) advice- that your AMD R9 390 "rendering performance far outpace the OpenCL performance on the Nvidia GTX 980, and give better quality results" - and cheaper. I also didn't know that two GPUs would work.
I built my PC last year and Haswell was the latest from Intel. It's now obsolete and limits my CPU upgrade to socket 1150 so I cannot use your recommended i7 CPUs which really irritates me!
I will upgrade RAM next to 16Gb - Thanks
This all points to one problem. Instead of having to learn from the expensive and time wasting "school of hard knocks" it's time for Cyberlink to come to the party. They know how their software works - and how hardware-dependent PDR13 performance is. If PRD13 gives us 4k, I must assume that their recommended "minimum system" will give satisfactory 4k results and that is just not true. Same goes for the new multi-cam. If we don't start with the correct hardware we will never be happy with their software.
I look forward to more user comments - Thanks again!
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There still seems to be a lot of confusion over Graphics Cards (GPUs) for PDR13. We all want reasonable performance when editing but what is the best "bang for the buck"?
Unfortunately, the thread "Best Graphics Card for PDR13" has been locked and the next topic is "Confused" which is, well, confusing.
My PC config is below. I have a Haswell core i5 with Intel 4600 on board GPU and latest Iris 64bit driver. I am not a gamer but I understand that video editing is CPU & GPU intensive. I built my system last year with PDR12, upgraded to 13 and edit 1080pHD H.264 but not 4k. So far, I am happy with performance. In gaming benchmarks the Intel 4600 1.8Gb GPU rates poorly compared to top end cards from AMD or Nvidia but PDR13 seems to use the Intel Graphics well and it is compatable. A top end card like the GTX980 costs more than my PC. Add to that the question of whether or not to use Hardware Acceleration for best PDR13 quality, the fact that PDR13 is not compatable with latest Nvidia drivers, etc - my question is how much of the gaming power in a top-end card does PDR13 actually use - and is it worth it? The GPU benchmarks are all for gaming and the card specs are complex. It would be nice to see benchmark info for PDR13 with a range of GPUs to see the actual performance cost/benefit.
According to PCworld - "Installing a discrete graphics card in Intel-based systems can also complicate the use of technologies like Intel’s Quick Sync video-encoding engine. Quick Sync is linked to Intel’s integrated graphics core, and installing a discrete card might disable it. If Quick Sync is something you can’t live without, you might be able to re-enable the integrated GPU, but there’s no truly elegant way of pulling that off." PDR13 uses Intel Quick Sync.
Next, I'm not sure what the CPU/GPU processing demands of PDR13 are. If I upgrade to from my i5 to an i7 for my M/Board the cost vs benefit is questionable. See http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/437/Intel_Core_i5_i5-4670_vs_Intel_Core_i7_i7-4771.html. Both are 4 core - meaning they can process 4 tasks simultaneously. How many cores is PDR13 able to use? Will an 8 core cpu running at the same clock speed make a significant difference to PDR13? What about memory? Will it help to upgrade my mem from 8 to 16Gb?
So far, the most significant performance upgrade for me was putting Win 8.1 and PDR13 on a SSD.
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I have experimented with SloMo using my GoPro 1080 50p clips. My output is 25p. To get real quality SloMo you need 1000 Fps or more. Most of us don't have access to a high speed camera so we use what we have.
In PDR13 I have found Video Speed is OK at .5 but poor results at slower speeds. I get acceptable results down to .2 using the Interpolation option - and have experienced no crashes with either.
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Shadowman,
In theory it makes sense but surely the results depend on the algorithm used by the re-sizing software? Does PDR13 use this method of "averaging" pixels or does it discard extra pixels and randomly choose which ones to keep? What about 20Mp photos resized to 1920x1080 (2Mp)? I find it difficult to understand.
I can see the time saving advantage when editing 4k when using the "swap rename" trick if you want 4k out but I find that the camera does the best job of producing quality at the desired output size. Resizing software generally gives poorer quality when downsizing than original camera footage at the desired project size - the exception being if you want to crop or zoom pics before rendering.
I would still like Eldor to compare original 1080 60p AVCHD or 1080 30p XAVC S footage from his camera in PDR13 with same clips shot in 4k using the "swap rename" method. Just a small 2-3 min project.
Remember, he wants 1080 output and he will combine footage from his new camera with 1080p clips fromvhis other cameras that cannot shoot 4k - and he was looking for the "most efficient" solution.
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Thanks blasiusxx
I have reinstalled PDR12 and will try a comparison to 13. I was afraid to install Beta patches.
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Thanks Tony - good point- I forgot about zooming/cropping in PDR13. I crop and resize PhD6 before adding pics to PDR13 but zoom needs higher res.
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As I newbie, I dived into PDR13's complex world of video editing with lot's of confusing and disappionting results assuming that higher quality always equals better results. I have learned that this is not a simple topic and some basic understanding of resolution before you start can make a big difference to expected results when viewed on my TV. YNOTFISH (Tony) and PIC from the PhD Forum have opened my eyes to a new world.
Maybe this is for Newbies but I could not find any reference to this question in manuals and PDR13 traing vids so I am looking for input from more experienced users. We all keep buying higher resolution cameras assuming we will see better results.
We all have different needs so I'll start my objectives and questions.
I simply want to get the best Output results from PDR13 when my project is viewed on my Sony full HD PAL large screen TV (I don't have 4k). I mix video with slides in PDR13
My Input is from a GoPro 3+ Black, which can shoot 4k, 2k, 1440p, 1080p and 720p HD at various frame rates and 12mp (4000 x 3000) images, a Sony video camera AVC HD 28M (1920x1080 50p), and my pics at 20Mp 4:3 and 15Mp 16:9.
My eyes were first opened when I looked at 20Mp pics vs 2Mp on my TV and saw that "more ain't better". Please see this link http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/24696.page#199400 post By PIC on 07/05/2014 15:57:53. PIC clearly illustrates why:
HD TVs (1080p = ~2.1MP) don't match the resolution of most DSLRs.
Rendering still images in video format results in unavoidable compression & picture quality loss.
Burning to DVD results in the greatest compression & PQ loss.
Look at the difference between a 20MP photo & a Full HD TV!
My PDR13 project settings are 16:9 50p (PAL) and I output H.264 MP4 25fps and create DVDs and BluRay DVDs.
I use PhotoDir 6 thru PDR13 and stand-alone to edit photos to add to the timeline.
It seems that all resizing software results in quality loss. I have tried Format Factory and Handbrake for video and PhD 6 for resizing pics before adding tp PDR13. All seem to give better results than when PDR13 re-sizes when rendering.
My limited experience and advice from Forum members tell me that:
- PDR13 seems to produce best results when input file sizes are as close as possible to desired output.
- Resizing video and pics before adding to your project give better results than mixed higher resolutions in the timeline.
- I have found that mixed video frame rates (1080 25p and 1080 50p) don't affect results. I use 50p for better slo-mo results with a 25p rendered output. Even if you project is set to 25p a 50p clip on the timeline stays 50p until rendered. Higher frame rate = better slo-mo.
- When you’re using mixed clips from different cameras, it’s best to produce to the lowest common denominator. e.g. if
your clips are a mixture of 1080, 960 & 720 – produce to 720. Trying to upscale 720p clips to 1080 doesn’t work very well & will give blurry images.
From the above it would seem that "size matters". Re-sizing may not be the best option - if you start with 4k (4096x2304} and resize to 1080 {1920x1080) results can be worse than starting with 1080. With photos re-sizing with PhotoShop will give better results than leaving it to PDR13.
My questions are:
- Are my assumptions above correct?
- If so will original camera settings give better results than re-sizing (1080 = 2.1Mp so would I get better results shooting 16:9 2Mp than 20Mp)?
- Should we try to ensure Input=Output whenever possible before starting with PDR13?
I don't want to start a technical discussion on resolutions - just to find out what give the best results from PD13? There is another thread here http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/43453.page debating whether 4k input can give better rendered results than 1080 input to produce 1080. Confusing.
Thanks
Al
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Somehow we lost Eldor who started this thread. So I'd like to go back to his original question.
As far as I can tell, his 24p camera setting is "Cinema Mode" and I'm still not sure what it's for. He wants 1080 (HD) out.
Two possible solutions were offered to his question of how to use his new Sony 4k camera with his other cameras that shoot 1080 30p and get best results from PDR13.
First was to use his camera's 4k to shoot, then convert all clips to low res, add 1080 30p cclips from another camers, and edit with PDR13. After editing swap 4k clips (same name and folder) with low res clips and Produce. A trick which apparently saves render times in PDR13.
Second option was to shoot 4k camera at 1080 60p AVCHD, combine with his 1080 30p clips from his other cameras in PDR13, and Produce.
I don't have a 4k camera but I would appreciate it if Eldor could try a small project using both suggestions and let us know which gives best results in PDR13??
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Hi xr650lou
This is an interesting topic and I would also like to better understand how to use higher speed. My PDR13 projects are HD (1920x1080) 50 fps 16:9.
I have a GoPro Hero3+ Black. I'm on PAL so frame rates are 25,50,etc.
I shoot my GoPro at 1080p 50 fps excellent HD quality.
I can shoot 720p at 100fps (good HD quality), and WVGA at 240fps (poor quality).
I stopped using GoPro Studio as it converts the MP4 into much larger AVI files prior to Edit. I have found a quality loss in the conversion (any conversion) so I import the GoPro MP4 files into PD13 and Edit there.
I use higher fps for better slo-mo. Even though I cannot set PD13 projects higher than 50 fps, I have found that PD13 does not convert the clip frame rate in the timeline until you Produce the project so higher frame rates should give better slo-mo results.
I use PD13 Slo-Mo with frame interpolation and get better results than the normal SloMo which tends to be jumpy at slow speeds. I haven't tried 240fps.
I suggest you give it a try with your 240fps and check your SloMo results. If you don't need SloMo and shoot at 240fps it might be better to convert to 60fps (NTSC) using GP Studio or other software.
I'm also learning so please share your results.
Al
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Quote:
I now find that the new Sony doesn't (seem) to do 1080p 30 fps. It does 24 fps. My other cameras all do 30 fps.
I don't need to shoot 4k video, but the Sony does it. I've heard that it's often an advantage to shoot in 4k even if your end result will only be 1080p. If I do that, would it be best to first take the 4k footage, and do a rough edit first and then produce a 1080p 30 fps result that I then bring back into my project?
Thanks guys, for any tips/suggestions about how to be the most efficient with this.
Thanks Shadowman but I'm still confused.
It looks like he is looking for 1080 30p (above) and his camera only shoots 24p and he shouldn't mix the 24p and 30p from his other cameras in the timeline. He says he doesn't need 4k. His camera does shoot 1080 60p AVCHD (which is NTSC compatable with with 30p) so I suggested he try it as an alternative to starting with 4k to get 1080p output. I can see the speed advantage to edit 4k by using FF to reduce size and then substitute 4k back to PDR13 - assuming you want 4k out. But if all you want is 1080p why not start with 1080p? He says he is looking for the "most efficient" solution.
I thought PDR13 gives best results when the input file quality is the same as the planned project output. Iv'e mixed (PAL) 1080 25p and 50p with excellent results.
Im not knocking the advice of senior members as a newbie - but I don't understand how using 4k to get 1080 can be better than just starting with 1080? It will save storage space on his camera and PC and save a lengthy time consuming process.
Would be interesting for Eldor to compare results - maybe I'll have to buy a 4k camera for better 1080 results??
Al
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Tere - Have a look at http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/0/40269.page#224654
First Video - PDR13 What's New - There is quite a lot - which is why I upgraded.
I agree with your comments. PDR12 is not an option. What about all the users who bought 13 and don't have 12??
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Shouldn't theses all be included in Dafydd's locked thread "PowerDirector 13 Tutorials"? They are great!
I found Cyberlink's own Tutorial vids too quick and too short for a Newbie like me.
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Quote:
You will see from Tony's post that the 4K clips will temporarily be downgraded using "Format Factory" This process lowers the bitrate making them easier to edit with PD. After editing, the files are replaced with the original 4K high bitrate files, these are the files that get produced and saved as 4K. This process avoid using "shadow files" which are too darn slow.
Then you take that 4K file and re-render to 1080P. It really works - sound complicated, but it isn't. If it was I couldn't do it.
That seems like a long way around. Tony has helped me with lots of tips and all good advice but converting 4k with FF to HD and then substituting 4k clips back into PDR to get HD out confuses me (and that's not difficult).
Eldor was looking for 1080p 30fps. His camera can shoot AVCHD 1080p 60p which seems like a more logical choice than starting with 4k. 60p will give better slo-mo results than 30p and then Produce to 1920x1080 30p.????? I'm on PAL but my Sony camera is set on 1920x1080 50p AVCHD and my GoPro 1920x1080 50p MP4. My project is set to 16:9 50fps and I render to 1920x1080 25p mp4 and results are great.
I'm still confused!!
Al
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Hi Carl,
Good question. I mistakenly thought i should uninstall 12 to upgrade to 13 but now understand they co-exist OK.
I'm trying to save space on my SSD and this thread was about PD13 so my comments were to agree that PD13 has problems which I think they should fix and my comment was to motivate adressing PD13 problems.
I am a big Cyberlink fan and would like to think they they convinced me to spend the money on the upgrade for a good reason.
My reference to 12 was to confirm that the flickering problem is real by going back to my PD12 projects and comparing results.
To go back to PD12 is like saying "The solution to the problem is - Don't use the software you paid for!"!
Al
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Thanks PIX,
Your two links explain it very well. 
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Something fundamental has changed in PD13.
If I look at my PD12 productions rendered to MP4 at 1920x1080 25p, my Slide Shows with keyframe motion from 15Mp 16:9 pics has no flicker and excellent image quality on my big screen Sony TV. Now with PD13 I can't get rid of the annoying flicker when using SlideShow or Magic Motion.
See thread Flicking images when using Magic motion http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/42943.page
They claim faster rendering times with PD13 vs PD12. Does PD13 have a new render engine? If so it appears they should fix it or revert back to PD12 engine even if it is a bit slower. Speed improvements cannot sacrifice quality.
PD12 was great. I'm sorry I removed it when I "upgraded" to PD13.
Al
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Thanks PIX,
Does this mean if I export a 20mp with 300 dpi res pic as 1920 Long Edge the output pic from PhD6 will be the same quality if the res is set to 72 (HD) or 300?
Al
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I have found a way to resize a batch of pics before adding to a PowerDir13 project.
Steps are: Go to FILE, Export Selected Photos, Image Sizing, Resize to fit, after that you have options to to resize by Long
Edge, Width and Height, or Short Edge.
I don't understand what the Resolution Setting is - it defaults to 240 pixels/in regardless of size selected.
What Res would 1920x1080 be to import into PD13?
The reason I need it is that PDR13 gives best results when input files are as close to project size as possible. My video is HD (1920x1080 50p) My Pics are 20Mp and if added to the timeline give poor rendered results.
I thought that the higher quality input would result in better output but it's not so.
Please see this link http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/24696.page#199400 post By PIC on 07/05/2014 15:57:53
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I found the simplest is a MB that supports SATA3.
Then an SSD drive with Win8.1 and PD13 (I unfortunately also have other software on it).
Then 2x1Tb 7200rpm SATA3 drives in a Raid0 which appears as a single 2Tb drive but FAST. I just use folders, not partitions, to manage. All Internal hardware.
Last but not least BACKUP. I have an external Seagate USB3 2TB and use Paragon Backup (free) for full and incremental backups so I can do partial or full restore.
My PC
MB Intel DH87MC
CPU Intel(R) Core(TM) i54670CPU @ 3.40GHz with on-board graphics Intel®HDGraphics4600 2Gb
8Gb DDR3 1600mhz Memory
2 X 1Tb WD Blue Hard Drive WD10EZEX 1TB 7200 RPM 64MB Cache - RAID 0
SSDisk SanDisk Extreme II SDSSDXP-120G-G25 2.5" 120GB SATA III
Win 8.1 64bit - boots up in <10 sec. It's a basic systen with no Graphics card, It works fine with PD13 but I haven't tried 4k editing. Next upgrade memory to 16Gb and I believe performance improves bu turning off Virtual Memory.
So I would advise to go SSD for your C: (Look at Samsung XP941 256GBDrive) and Raid 0 HDDs before anything else.
I assume my system is too light for 4k and I would have to upgrade to a Core i7 cpu??
Al
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As a NEWBIE, my experience is limited but Support has responded to all my PD12 and 13 problems and experienced users on the forum have taken time to explain all other issues.
Giving the product a bad review might vent some steam and make you feel better but I doubt it will solve your problems.
If you think Cyberlink is bad - try Windows Support! Since DOS I have upgraded to every version of windows released to date hoping it would be better. Vista was the worst and now I'm hoping Win 10 might answer my prayers.
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