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For video editing the best CPU is Intel. Testing proves this over and over.
For video card - even the Intel GPU is fine, AMD or nvidia are slightly better, but don't need to get the top of the line, the video decoder/encoders are the same across the families of GPU.
Hi all - Been a long time since I was last on the forum so please forgive me if I've missed something.
Still using PDR14 but finally moving to 4K so it's time to upgrade.
Footage is H.264 (AVC) and H.265 (HEVC). May also include 4K 8 bit HDR later which is now available in newer DSLR cameras and UHD TVs. Output 4K AVC and HEVC.
I'm an Intel fan and planned to go i7-8700K 6 core with an Asus Prime Z370-A m/board overclocked to 5ghz a few months ago but might wait for the new i7-9700K 8 core due in Oct with the 390 chipset.
The GPU Acceleration thread debating best discrete GPU cards is now closed. I have a GTX960 4GB card.
My question is how does the Intel Iris iGPU perform for timeline decoding/playback and encoding 4K perform in PDR16. It may not be a great gaming GPU but it does have some powerful 4K hardware encoding/decoding capabilities including HDR since Kaby Lake 7th gen CPUs.
The Kaby Lake-U/Y GPU - Media Capabilities
Are there any advanatges to using both the Intel and Nvidia GPUs or will they conflict?
All comments welcome. Thanks
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I built a new system together. Based on the new Intel Coffe Lake CPU Core i7 8700, with integrated Intel UHD Graphics 630.
Full power of 630 iGPU started with the 7th Gen Kaby Lake CPUs. The issue becomes confusing as GPU benchmarks use gaming which is very different to and hence low benchmaks vs expensive discrete GPu cards. The 630 has powerful media capabilities when working with 4K H.264/265. These highly compressed formats save space on cameras but are difficult to decompress for timeline editing.
Professional NLEs like MAGIX who now own Sony Vegas, and Edius have added support and DaVinci Resolve are will be adding it soon. 4K H.265 offers better quality at the same bitrate and half the file seize of H.264, It is gaining popularity as high quality camera capture format in DJi Drones and the Pana GH5 - but needs 10X more compute power to decode for edit than H.264. H.265 is predicted to be the broadcast format for 4K TV due to bandwith savings.
How Magix Made 4K 360 Video Editing Swift and Easy | Intel® Software
https://software.intel.com/en-us/videos/how-magix-made-4k-360-video-editing-swift-and-easy
Here is a breakdown of 630 iGPU capabilities
The Kaby Lake-U/Y GPU - Media Capabilities - Intel Launches 7th Generation Kaby Lake: 15W/28W with Iris, 35-91W Desktop and Mobile Xeon
http://www.anandtech.com/show/10959/intel-launches-7th-generation-kaby-lake-i7-7700k-i5-7600k-i3-7350k/6
The older 4000 series of Intel Graphics has been supported via QuickSync Video (QSV) has been supported by PDR for many years as an option for hardware accelerated render but I stopped using it in PDR14 as there were known quality issues and the slower software render produced better results.
630 iGPU has fixed the quality issues and has several other powerful features including HDR 10 bit color support and:
"The major feature change in the Kaby Lake-U/Y media engine is the availability of full hardware acceleration for encode and decode of 4K HEVC Main10 profile videos.
The QuickSync block also gets a few updates to improve quality further, and AVC encode performance also receives a boost.
Intel claims that Kaby Lake-U/Y can handle up to eight 4Kp30 AVC and HEVC decodes simultaneously.
HEVC decode support is rated at 4Kp60 up to 120 Mbps (especially helpful for premium content playback and Ultra HD Blu-ray).
The Video Quality Engine also receives some tweaks for HDR and Wide Color Gamut (Rec.2020) support. Real-time HEVC 4Kp30 encode" Al
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I built a new system together. Based on the new Intel Coffe Lake CPU Core i7 8700, with integrated Intel UHD Graphics 630.
I'm planning the same build for 4k with the 8700K - would appreciate your feedback on PDR16 4K performance and the 630 iGPU.
Thanks
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Ive started trying Quicktime.mov as the file format with DNxHD codec. That codec is a free download from the Avid site. Used the HQ flavor of this codec which is just a few mb higher than the 100 mb bitrate my video is shot in. It is XVAC S 100mb 8 bit color 29.97fps with 16 bit audio. This Codec changes the file of about 8 mins and 5.5gb into a 52gb file. This was done in premiere. Opens in Powerdirector so thats a success so far.
Though not directly supported by PDR, most professional intermediate codecs will work as long as they are installed on your PC including Cineform AVI and Grass Valley HQX AVI which are also free. Intermediates produce larger files with lower compression for easier h.264 editing. Resolve uses .MOV without QuickTime on your PC but you should avoid QT on Windows.
Why not use Resolve for cutting as well and simplify your workflow? PDR is really for "non-professional" use and you are talking about a professional studio workflow where separate programs are used for cutting, color correction, edit, and compositing/FX.
Pros now use a simplified integrated workflow like Adobe Premiere Pro and After Effects or DaVinci Resolve and Fusion.
I'm not sure I understand your workflow.
Al
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Note for existing users. M+PD will continue working but only with the MagicYUV ver 1.x codec. Please continue using it.
Magic+PD was user developed as a simple means of transcoding compressed camera formats to the Magic YUV codec for 4k editing.
Magic+PD will not work with the newer 2.x versions of the MagicYUV codec and therefore user support has been withdrawn.
MagicYUV is rapidly gaining popularity as a fast intermediate edit codec and they will release a new converter which will include all versions of the codec and replace the current M+PD version. We will post a link to the new converter/transcoder as soon as it is released.
Thanks to all who participated in the project.
Al
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Use of quick sync is necessary for those who have the the latest nvidia cards and those with some legacy amd cards and want a PD created BD to work in some of the older cheap BD players. It is the only way other than using a different pc.
I'm suprised. Quick Sync Video (QSV) from Haswell supports H.264/MPEG-4 AVC, VC-1 and H.262/MPEG-2 Part 2 video standards. Rendering with or without QSV My BD player works fine for Mp4 and Mpeg-2. Mpeg-2 is lower compression but sometimes quality looks a bit better. I must admit I've had BD quality issues with PDR. A Mp4 BD never looks as good as an Mp4 file played on a thumb drive thru my BD player to my TV - but that's another issue.
Since Haswell 4600 gpu QSV was upgraded with Broadwell, again with Skylake, and now Kaby Lake with H.265/HEVC Main10/10-bit encoding and decoding acceleration - top rated for both speed and quality.
How is Intel Quick Sync affected by the Nvidia cards??
Al
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Quick Sync is great for faster render but for users like me who have the older Intel CPUs with 4600 gpus quality may not be what you are expecting. I've used it for years and render out to H.264 and always use Quick Sync but often disappointed with the quality: Here's why:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7007/intels-haswell-an-htpc-perspective/8
"There's a widespread regression in image quality ranging from appreciably worse to equal at best with Haswell compared to Ivy Bridge."
Quality has improved with the latest Intel Graphics GPUs and latest Intel Graphics is tops at H.265 decoding.
https://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2015/10/23/intel-media-server-studio-hevc-codec-wins-transcoding-title
Al
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I, too have a GTX 960 4GB but also use quick sync so will switch between GPUs.
If I have it right from reading this forum, the only way to switch between GPU's for PD is in the 'BIOS'?
At the moment I use Device manager. Once I get my new PC with two monitors I'll run some tests but both can be used with PDR.
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pmikep - Thanks. The Ryzen might give Intel some competition for a change - but I'm an Intel fan. My past AMD experiences were not good. I, too have a GTX 960 4GB but also use quick sync so will switch between GPUs. According to Asus, 80% of these cpus overclock to a stable 5ghz.
Al
UPDATE - Intel is already upgrading the new Kaby Lake i7-7700 in response to Ryzen. Due in March so I'll wait. Also adding hyperthreading to the Kabylake i5 making as fast as the Skylake i7. Talk of Intel lowering prices as well. Competition benefits evrtyone. 
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RP - Just as a matter of interest what happens when you edit those files using GoPro Studio?
I haven't used GoPro Studio for a number of years, so sorry I can't answer that. I'm travelling at the moment but might have a look when I get home, even just to see what changes have been made there.
It's free and worth a try to see if you have a similar experience and may help to narrow the cause.
Al
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RP - Just as a matter of interest what happens when you edit those files using GoPro Studio?
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Hi Jeff - Point taken - must be old age!! "Edius was great with real-time 4k preview (up to two layers) on my PC." also "meant to imply 4K real-time preview at limited preview resolution" on my PC. Edius 8.2 can display UHD/4k using full screen playback on a 4k monitor via a 4k display port. 4k preview at 4k resolution is also possible in Resolve. I assume you understood what I meant - but I stand corrected.
FYI - "More than likely AIS simply did not know PD timeline does not display 4K" is incorrect - PDR does display a 4k timeline - but not at 4k resolution. Symantics can be confusing
Al
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Hi Tony - my memory is worse but I seem to recall that you did some tests and shadow files were very low resolution only which may not be ideal for some editing 4k. The advantage to Magic+PD is that you can smoothly edit 4k with 4k relatime preview.
cincydroneboy
Proxy editing is suported in many NLE programs and the user can specify the proxy resolution. Eg if you are editing H.264 4k you can select H.264 1080 or 720 HD proxy resolution. The program automatically generates the proxy files, uses them for edit, and exchanges them for your original 4k files to render 4k out. Proxy editing implies using a lower res file to edit.
Magic+PD uses a process called Transcoding which is now used in many edit programs as an automated process which converts the highly compressed H.264 4k camera files into a decompressed file using an intermediate edit friendly codec which substantially reduces the edit program workload and provides full resolution preview. In other programs you can select a codec like Cineform, DNxHd, MagicYUV, etc and it will create transcoded files prior to edit. For example the free editor GoPro Studo forces the user to convert GoPro H.264 mp4 files to Cineform prior to edit. Transcoding is also common practice in professional post producton edit workflows. PDR doesn't support Transcoding so users created Magic+PD to enable 4k editing on a home PC. It's not perfect, but it works, and may be worth a try
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I'm busy upgrading my desktop to the new Kaby Lake i7-7700K plus an Asus Z270-A m/board. It's Intel's fastest i7 so far and overclocks easily to around 5ghz. That may be "the wall" for silicon CPU speeds for the forseeable future for reasons I'll explain later.
Cyberlink worked with Intel in the early days and, according to my contact at Intel, Intel wrote all of the code for Power Dirctor to make use of the early versons of Intel HD Graphics and Quicksync. Many pro NLEs like Adobe, Davinci Resolve, GV Edius 8, etc have also added Intel Graphics support and the latest Edius 8 claims a 5X increase in render speed using Quicksync vs CPU render - much faster than I see with PDR.
The new i7 Kaby Lake comes with Intel 630 graphics which is an upgrade from the 530 Skylake graphics and has some powerful features for editing software as you can see here:
The Kaby Lake-U/Y GPU - Media Capabilities
"Full hardware acceleration for encode and decode of 4K HEVC (H.265) Main10 profile videos." Unfortunately most software has a long way to go to make full use of the 630 graphics - with one exception - Magix, who now owns the well known Sony Vegas edit software, and worked with Intel to develop the latest verson of their edit software and claim 4k 360 editing using Kaby Lake.
How Magix Made 4K 360 Video Editing Swift and Easy
Let's hope PDR does the same.
Now back to "the wall". I'm sure many users share my disappointment in Intel's upgrade path over the past few years. Moore's Law has died and "Tick/Tock" is no more, making it increasingly difficult to decide if and when to upgrade your PC. The press often blames Intel for the lack of progress due to lack of competition - but we may be reaching the limits of silicon technology. We once saw 50% performance improvements annually. Now we see 5-6% due more to refinements than technology breakthroughs. There are actually three walls limiting technology We will see smaller more efficient cpus as Intel moves from 14nm to 10nm to 7nm over the next few years but not much faster.
The future of computers - Part 1: Multicore and the Memory Wall
The myths of Moore’s law
So after posponing an upgrade for three years I'm looking at the following:
- i7 7700K water cooled
- Asus Prime Z270-A m/board (great for o/clock)
- 32 Gb DDR4 3200
- SSD Samsung 960 M.2 512GB (3,500mb/sec read)
- 2x 2TB WD Blue 7200rpm
- A second 24"HD monitor -can't justify UHD cost for 24"screen
Comments welcome
Al
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Hi!
Wow, have you tried it? Looks almost too good to be true........
Hi Nina - It's a new tech startup. I signed up Here and they will email me when it's fully launched. I like what I see so far. Compositing is tedious hard work. Great concept and you can even use it comercially. Time will tell
According to website one time payment $47 gets you a lifetime license, 30 Renders per Month, Unlimited Use Of Animations. $67 for a commervial license - unlimited everything. 30 Day Money Back Guarantee. Would prefer a free trial.
Al
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Is this the future for titles and effects?
I was impressed after having used After Effects and Fusion for compositing.
Breathtaking Animations In 3 Clicks
Al
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Thanks PepsiMan,
I've been postponing an upgrade since PDR12. Intel's "tic tok" has been a bit of a disappointment since Haswell. My little i5 with Intel HD graphics 4600 gpu is still going and when I edit 4k, Magic+PD works fine with PDR.
KabyLake looks promising for desktops. Recent reviews: "Intel’s media engine will decode VP9 and HEVC 10-bit codecs, which covers the most popular Ultra HD formats, especially for streaming." and "Kaby Lake also offers integrated GPUs better-suited to 4K video. Thanks to a new media engine built on a Gen9 graphics architecture, users can edit real-time 4K video using nothing more than integrated graphics." Quite a claim for a "free" integrated low power GPU.
I'm not a gamer but I'm amazed at the power packed into modern GPUs - but still confused about how little most programs seem to use it. Games written for GPUs and DirX 12 show that every extra $ you spend is a better benchmark. Editing software was more CPU oriented. Benchmarks are difficult to find for pro software but most I saw last year showed more performance improvement from new i7 6,8, & 10 core CPUS than gained from top GPU cards. My understanding is that edit software only benefits from GPU power with effects etc optomised for OpenCL, certain codecs like MYUV which are GPU optomised, and rendering for H.264 & H.265. But it's still a grey area to me. Plus pro software like Edius Pro 8 and DaVinci Resolve 10.5 have recently added Intel graphics support. Seems Intel GPUs rate at the bottom of gaming benchmarks but make a difference to edit software. Blackmagic and Iris™ Graphics: A Match Made at Intel . Comparing H264 encoding in EDIUS to other programs
So I got the Gigabyte GeForce GTX 960 G1 4GB for BM Fusion 8 compositing/graphics software I am learning - similar to Adobe After Effects. It's GPU intensive and needs a 2Gb gpu. I'll o/clock it to 1500Mhz. I contacted a Fusion user who recommended the card.
I would have preferred a GTX1060 or a 1080 but Santa got the 960 becuase it was on special - and I have a DJI Mavic Pro 4k drone on my Christmas list
Thanks for the links - still a bit confused. How does "Multi-GPGPU" work in Win 10? New card should arrive this week so any tips will be greatly appreciated.
PM- Next upgrade from GIGO to GIGOTS!!
Thanks,
Al
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Many Edit programs have recently added support for Intel HD Graphics and Intel Quick Sync for H.264. Some claim up to 5X render speed improvements using Quick Sync hardware encoding - which is supported in PDR14/15.
I just bought - but not yet installed- a Gigabyte G1 GTX960 4GB GPU for other video graphics work (compositing) and would like to know the following:
- Can I set up the GTX GPU without losing Quick Sync for rendering?
- Can my PC access both GPUs with a single monitor?
- Will PDR render using Quick Sync with two cards?
- How does GTX H.264 encoding compare to Quick Sync?
- Will PDR use the GTX GPU for GPU optomized effects etc?
I'm hoping someone like Jeff (JL_JL) who has done so much GPU research with PDR14/15 can assist me.
Thanks
Al
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GPUs
Following the discussions on GPU's and how they perform in PDR14/15 and the significant amount of info contributed by members, I must admit to being more than just a little confused about what we can or should expect in terms of additional performance when buying a GPU. As a result I have been looking at tests done using other editing software which have added GPU support.
Adobe Premiere has been around since 1991. I first used it (Ver 4.0) in 1994. It required a 386cpu, 8Mb ram, and Win 3.1.
I recently found this comprehensive test titled "GTX 1070 and GTX 1080 Premiere Pro Performance" using a 60 second video on the timeline
"Adobe utilizes the Mercury Playback Engine which uses the video card to vastly improve the performance of certain features. This provides a tremendous boost to performance, but it adds more complexity to the question of "what hardware do I need" since you need to take into consideration how many accelerated effects you use. In this article, we want to explore the performance differences between the new GTX 1070 and GTX 1080 and the previous generation GTX 980 Ti and GTX Titan X using a variety of different codecs and resolutions."
The biggest shock was the hardware used on two sytems. One is a dual 12 core Xeon E5-2687W V4 CPUs at $2k each and the second has a single Core i7 6950X 10 core cpu at $1.6k. Both have 256Gb DDR4 ram. My. how times have changed!
The tests were done by Puget Systems who supply custom PCs and are an Adobe Technology Partner. Their Standard System for Premiere Pro starts at $5k.
The tests include the GTX980, 1070, 1080, and TitanX with both single and dual GPU's on each machine. I would like to see the same tests with all that CPU power and no GPUs. Note they used edit codecs and effects which are GPU optimized Effects.
I'm still confused by the results and in shock when I see the sort of hardware now being used for editing.
In general the core i7 outperformed the dual Xeons and the GPU results are mixed and, to me, disappointing.
"The GTX 1070 is about 1% faster than the GTX 980Ti and about 4% faster than the Titan X. The GTX 1080 is about 4% faster than the GTX 980Ti and about 6.5% faster than the Titan X."
Maybe forum members can shed some light.
CPUs
I have been debating the benefits of upgrading my CPU and whether more cores or a faster clock is more important.
Here is another Adobe Premiere Pro CC 2015.3 CPU Comparison by the same company with the same timeline, a single GPU card and different CPUs. The Intel Core i7-6900K 8 core cpu showed a 44% improvement over the Intel Core i7-6700K 4 core. There is a clear advantage to more cores and a single CPU for PPro. Has anyone tested 6, 8 or 10 core CPU with PDR? Should we expect similar results?
DirectX 12
There seems to be a significant increase in GPU performance with DirectX 12. Even more, previously incompatible GPUs can be combined with DX12. The impossible has happened: Testing Radeon and GeForce together in DirectX 12. Will it benefit video editing?
Al
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The program can also show you updates. Click on the bell img in the top right corner.
It says "Check for Updates or Upgrage". Seeattached file.
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