Messages posted by GSB1

Thanks, great answer, very useful.

Hi again,

I am checking back to see if someone can help me establish if my big gripe with PD9 is resolved in PD10.

My problem with PD9 was that starting with a native 1080i BDAV format m2ts file, when edited and produced as a 1080i AVC video in PD9, the output was of MPEG-TS format and the scan type MBAFF.

Can PD10 produce a 1080i (interlaced scan type not MBAFF) m2ts file that is of BDAV format?

TIA
G.

Quote: More importantly the scan type is MBAFF instead of interlaced which may not be supported by some media players.

I did see that (noted as I had read about MBAFF earlier in the day) but then over looked and fogot about it. Well highlighted. I've made bold in my post to make it clear.

Obviously I would like PD to give me the power to choose some of these production options. However if I had a simple way to remux the MPEG-TS AVC format MBAFF scan type video to BDAV AVC interlaced video, I would have a work around without compromise.

Any ideas on options for txMuxeR or other tools? I have tried Avidemux without any luck.

Being able to produce 'BDAV' Blu-ray video type AVC files (m2ts). Although I would hape this to come as a patch for PD9.

A comparison of 'mediainfo' results below for my native m2ts files, PD9 produced m2ts and Corel X4 m2ts files.

My lay mans take is that the problem seems to be PD9 produces 'MPEG-TS' AVC files and not 'BDAV' AVC files.

A native M2TS file from camera

Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 42.3 MiB
Duration : 21s 254ms
Overall bit rate : 16.7 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 18.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 21s 160ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 15.8 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.305
Stream size : 39.9 MiB (94%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 21s 184ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 497 KiB (1%)

PowerDirector 9 Procuced M2TS (source video of the type above). SVRT rendered.

Format : MPEG-TS
File size : 66.6 MiB
Duration : 41s 234ms
Overall bit rate : 13.5 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 40.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=13
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 41s 560ms
Bit rate : 12.7 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : MBAFF
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.245
Stream size : 62.8 MiB (94%)

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 41s 552ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 192 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : 9ms
Stream size : 974 KiB (1%)

Sample Corel Video Studio Pro X4 M2TS (re-render of above file)

Format : BDAV
Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
File size : 72.3 MiB
Duration : 40s 516ms
Overall bit rate : 15.0 Mbps
Maximum Overall bit rate : 23.0 Mbps

Video
ID : 4113 (0x1011)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=12
Codec ID : 27
Duration : 40s 640ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 14.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 18.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Standard : PAL
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.270
Stream size : 67.8 MiB (94%)
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

Audio
ID : 4352 (0x1100)
Menu ID : 1 (0x1)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 129
Duration : 40s 608ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 384 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 1.86 MiB (3%)

More reading and lots more testing later, some updates that I hope may be of use to anyone who reads this.

First of all a note about testing. I have learnt to test with a minimum of a title with some animated text, footage, a transition, footage and an audio track. Some formats produce video that doesn't get past playing the title sequence without defects (combing etc).

For You Tube, I think I am going to give up on m2ts for now. I have doubts about the PD m2ts output and You Tube support for m2ts is questionable also. In this aspect, PD output is not alone. So my solution for producing video for You Tube is MPEG4. This seems to be favoured by You Tube. I am producing 1080 video with video and audio bit rates aligned to my native footage. I am producing as progressive without any hardware acceleration. So far this seems to be a working combination, the crunch will be when I have a real project to produce. The video also plays back fine on Windows Media Player.

So far as producing video for playback on my TV. The only option that comes close is to use AVC H.264 with SVRT so that no video is rendered. This is just about acceptable playing back via my DMP. I am not entirely content and think the format of the m2ts that PD is producing is not quite right, but I hope it will get me by. Time will tell on this one as I produce and watch more video. The video does also play back on Windows Media Player OK.

I hope that helps someone. Any ideas or constructive comments appreciated.

Graham

Quote: What model of TV do you have?

The TV is a Panasonic TXL42D25B and the DMP is a Panasonic DMP-BDT310. Both on the latest firmware. I am playing the video back on both via DLNA, from my WIndows 7 PC.

The TV issue I could write off (given I have good results fromthe DMP), but the audio loss when uploaded to You Tube is not accpetable and combined the issues look like a good match to the case for bad header information. Especially as the produced file from PD9, rendered again by Corel Video Studio X4 is magically restored to completeness when used on the devices it was previously troublesome on.

Thanks for replying HalCon.

Much more testing later.....

The production format that gives me the best, most consistent and most compatible results is AVC H.264 1080i using SVRT. For the record without any fast rendering at all or with hardware acceleration I get some form of snagging or corruption in one or more frames. None of the other (non-AVCHD) HD formats give me good results, most show some sort of artifact or jerkiness etc. So AVCHD with SVRT it is. A logical choice too - 1080i in, 1080i out, least rendering as possible.

So producing a 1080i m2ts with SVRT I get video that plays well in Windows and looks good (I concede perhaps indistinguishable) from the original on my HD TV via my DMP. So far so good. However, there is still a but. The same video does not look good when played directly by my HD TV (not really an issue as I have the DMP, but a sign not all is well) and when uploaded to you tube the audio is lost part way thorugh (just as HalCon experienced). This again has to be down to header information as the 1080i SVRT produced m2ts rendered again via Corel Video Studio appears as the correct format on my TV, plays as it should and when uploaded to you tube the sound is retained.

You don't all have the same TV as me, but if anyone can help achieve the following we might be on to something:

Produce my sample in PD9 - AVCHD, 1080i, SVRT ( a custom profile with audio bit rate reduced to 192 should see SVRT not need to render anything). Remux so that when uploaded to youtube the audio remains throughout.

thank you

Quote: Perhaps it is time to post a native .MTS file for download and I will do some testing. I have a Panny GT30 I can test them on.
Regards

OK here we go. A short clip, but the spokes of the wheel highlight any loss of quality very clearly.

thank you

Quote: Perhaps it is time to post a native .MTS file for download and I will do some testing. I have a Panny GT30 I can test them on.
Regards

I'll get something posted later on today.

Much appreciated.

Quote:

The header information makes perfect sense, and at least expalins what I was seeing by re-rendering with Corel Video Studio.

I'll check out the eac3to/tsMuxeR solution tommorow and report back. Although a shame, I can potentially see a solution there.

A few results. Not quite what I was hoping for.

**For all results the files created play back in Windows Media Player, but I am looking at compatibility with my TV, as this is the HD display that exposes the problem in the native AVCHD files produced by PD9. ** That said the difference in quality is still visible in Windows media Player, just on a non-HD display it is less blatant.

All hardware acceleration options are off.

Method........................................................ - Result ...........................

1080i video produced with SVRT - poor quality
1080i video produced with SVRT and remuxed - will not play
1080p video produced - poor quality
1080p video produced and remuxed - will not play
1080i video produced without SVRT - poor quality and includes a glitch/corruption at the bottom of one frame
1080i video produced without SVRT and remuxed - good quality but includes the glitch above
1080i video produced with SVRT, rerendered by producing in Corel Video Studio X4 - good quality, no corruption. As I would have hoped PD9 would produce first time.

For sure PD9 is not compatible with the formats I need to work with. Very frustrating, as otherwise nice interface and features and hard to contend witht the 64 bit capability.

Any more ideas?

Quote:

GSB1 Wrote:
What is your source footage, 1080p also?

My source footage is a Canon VIXIA HF 100R camera.
It shoots 1080i at 17 Mbps.

Interesting that you are also working with 1080i source footage. What setting are you using for producing?

I wonder why your experience is different (I am having issues withthe header information it would seem), unless perhaps the format of your source footage fits PD better.

Quote:

An example of what PD produces in 1080p, on Youtube. There are a lot of pauses on 1080p because of server lag. The 720p plays well.

What is your source footage, 1080p also?

Quote:

I am not an expert in video encoding language so my explanation is the result of reading and experimentation.

PD firstly has a problem with interlaced video. I now use progressive video in PD and am happy with the programme. I use another software if I need to produced interlaced video from progressive output from PD9.

Research and experience is a fine source of information in my book!

When you say you use progressive video in PD - is this due to a change of camera, as in the footage you are working with is progrssive? Or am I missing a simple trick to output my 1080i footage as progressive? I assume the former as I tried producing to 1080p with no improvement. I'll revisit this if need be.

Quote:

I believe part of the problem is the information PD writes to the "header" of the video file. This is what the media player reads to know what is coming up. I can produce a video segment multiple times and it plays fine on some occasions and then has field order reversed the next. Also some media players cannot read the files correctly and has trouble displaying them but simply remuxing fixes the problem. This is indeed what you have discovered using VSX3. There is a little app written by jmone which simply demuxes and remuxes the files and fixes them. This is just rewriting the header info correctly.
The link is here but is specific for 1080p material. I haven't tested for interlaced video.
http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/15533.page#75776

This may be adapted for your files and save using X3.

Hope this helps.

The header information makes perfect sense, and at least expalins what I was seeing by re-rendering with Corel Video Studio.

I'll check out the eac3to/tsMuxeR solution tommorow and report back. Although a shame, I can potentially see a solution there.

A massive help, thank you. At least for all my hours reading, experimenting and testing I am not alone and my findings make some sense. I'd still like the right output firect from the editor though!

Corel Video Studio is growing on me, but nothing can beat the HD peview of PD9!

Graham

Hi all,

I have been evaluating PowerDirector Ultra64 9.0.0.2930.

I've been looking for a consumer end (consumer end priced anyway) application to edit the AVCHD video from my Panasonic camera.

The reviews for PowerDirector 9 are good and the functionality I have found and tried seems a good match for my needs, with a learning curve that isn't too steep. So far so good.

However I have a but which I shall explain below. The short version is I cannot get PowerDirector to produce acceptable quality HD video (at all), including but not exclusive to H.264 AVC which is what I want to use. The output is HD, but at a significant loss of quality, complete with jaggies etc.

The native 1080 HD interlaced AVCHD video from my camera is good, as you would expect. I want to produce edited video primarily to play back on my HD TV. My TV (also Panasonic) displays the native AVCHD video from my camera very nicely. I will also want to upload some of my video to You Tube or Vimeo. Again the native video from the camera uploads and displays just as I would expect.

I have hardware acceleration turned of in options and the very latest ATI Catalyst for my Radeon 6670 graphics card. What I am seeing is that even with a project that consists of one imported video, with the H.264 AVC output matched so that SVRT recognises no rendering is required, the out put .m2ts is noticeably poor quality. How apparent this is depends on what I play the video back on. On my PC it does not jump out at you, but my monitor is not HD. On my HD TV via a DMP player (you guessed it, Panasonic), you can see it but it is not too bad. Played directly via my TV, it is appalling. A video of the London Eye shows it very clearly looking at the spokes, which are fuzzy zig zags and not defined straight lines. The same occurs whether I use SVRT rendering or no fast rendering at all. As mentioned, I have tried producing in other HD formats, which are no better some worse.

My early conclusions after some reading were that this was poor deinterlacing by PowerDirector and I read of similarly poor deinterlacing of other products too, including some of the higher end applications. I also note that my TV sees my native .m2ts files as "video" and my PD produced .m2ts files as "mpeg2".

With such poor results from the media I want to work with, although disappointed to do so, I started to look at alternative options.

Trying Corel Video Studio Pro X4, I was frustrated by what appears to on the surface be an inferior product. However the Corel product works with my same native video and even regardless of how I trim or introduce audio tracks etc renders AVCHD .mpg or H.264 .m2t files without any visible reduction in quality. My TV also sees these files as "video" just like the native files.

So now I am frustrated. I have the product I want to use (PD9) but doesn't actually produce as I require or the product I'd rather not use (Corel VS X4) that at least produces the fundamental goods.

Next I tried something that I thought was a off to a loosing start, but turned out to be very interesting.

I produced a video, titles, transitions, trimming and audio in PD9 from my native m2ts files. I produced using AVC 1080HD format, with SRVT rendering. Output just about acceptable, so long as not played back on my TV (TV via the DMP OK but not as good as native footage). I took that produced video and imported into Corel Video Studio X4. I then produced that video as a AVCHD .mpg file. I played that back on my TV (which saw it as "video" not MPEG). There I had the video how I wanted it produced with quality I cannot tell from the very original footage. This last test suggests to me my problem is not that PowerDirector is reducing the quality (otherise how does it return) but the format it is saving in is not quite right, something Video Studio X4 over comes.

Can anyone explain why I cannot get this result from PowerDirector alone or where I am going wrong?

thanks for sticking with me if you read this far! I want one tool that is powerful enough to meet my needs that can produce without a noticeable reduction in playback qaulity. I haven't the engergy to try more products and not all have trials. I hope the asnwer is not that I have to learn to live with Video Studio.

Thanks in advance

Graham