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It's not the data rate, its how much the camera has moved between each frame that is captured and how long the shutter is open for. Think of it as a series of still photos for a second. If you are shooting 25fps on a 1/50 of a second then the shutter is closed for 50% of the time so any quick movement is not recorded at that time. If you are running 1/250th of a sec. then the shutter is closed for 90% of the time making the panning judder much more noticable. We have been conditioned for years watching 1/50 - 1/60th shutter speeds, so to most of us that is what looks "normal". You will also notice how increadibly slowly pans are done in Hollywood movies.

I'm not an iPhone user but isn't there some apps that give you more control? The other issue you are going to have is that I'm pretty sure the iPhone will not do 25 or 50fps (Edit: I'm wrong apparantly you can https://beebom.com/record-video-pal-format-iphone/). So you are going to end up mixing different frames rates in your edit suite resulting in judder. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine The only way to avoide this type of judder (if you find it objectionable) will be to capture, edit, and view all footage in the same (or a clean multiple) of the frame rate.
As james said, a slow panning speed is very important.

Another key factor to look at is:
1) What frame rate you are shooting at
2) What shutter speed are you using

Many will recomend the traditional "180 degree" rule (or setting the shutter speed at twice the frame rate) so that if you are shooting at 30fps then you shutter speed should the 1/60sec. This will result in each frame having some motion blur so that in video panning is less jumpy and looks smoother.

FWIW, I shoot and view my fotage at 50fps and use "360 degrees" so my shutter speed is also 1/50sec (or effectivly no shutter at all!). The challenge is then to manage exposure in other ways (changing apparture, gain, use of ND etc).
Quote Try rendering it at 60fps. Any modern "HDTV" should be able to play that, they are just big smartphones after all....


Very bad idea. Source is 50fps, rendering to 60fps will intoduce pulldown judder. Please stop with this nonsense.
It's great the content available has been expanded, but is there yet a way to find Video Clips by attibute (say FPS) without downloading them and checking? Eg: I may want 25 or 50fps material to match with my own.
FYI - I've now also submitted the following to PD:

---------------------

Hi,
I've been assisting a user in this thread regarding working with UHD HEVC 10 Bit 4:2:2 material from their Canon XF705 Camcorder (https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/83388.page). I was a Beta Tester for PD pre-releases for many years and used to provide feedback under that program (which I no longer have access to, so I'm using this form).
I have feedback in three areas:
1) 4:2:2 Import Support: It is good that PD now supports 4:2:2 import support but it is limited to ProRes / V210. It seems that PD This needs to be expanded to other containers like MXF, MP4, MKV etc. For now I've created (as documented in the thread above) a HEVC 10 Bit 4:2:2 in MXF --> 10 Bit 4:2:2 ProRes HQ in MOV proxy generator so the user can bring in their footage into PD
2) MXF Support for Multi Audio Streams: It is also good that PD can now open MXF containers, but the handling of the multiple Mono Audio Streams needs additional work. MXF containers can have a large number of these streams and there needs to be a way of assign each of these to a particular Channel in a stream. Eg it could be Mono Stream 1 --> Left Channel on Stereo Track 1 & Mono Stream 2 --> Right Channel on Stereo Track 1 (eg from Internal Stereo Mic); Mono Stream 3 --> Mono Track 2 (eg Shotgun Mic). I've attached how Resolve does this in a nice intuitive way. I've also created a remuxer script for the user that pre-process their MXF clips and muxes the Mono Streams in Stereo into a MKV container so they can use the "Language Feature" in PD. Not ideal but it is a workaround.
3) 10 Bit Output Support: I know this may take longer, but PD does need to add a 10-Bit output format. If you are able to take in ProRes 10-Bit 4:2:2, these users will want to be able to output 10-Bit 4:2:0 and are currently limited to 8 Bit.
I've also attached the Zip file with a range of ffmpeg scripts for converting
Thanks
Nathan
Hi Noud,
I've always been tempted to go the XF705 but it is a bit bigger. There are alot of new Camera releases at present, so I'm hoping for a refresh of the XF400 series to pack in the goodness of the XF705 Codecs in it's smaller size with a removable handle (great for travel etc).... or maybe a C70.... or ??? I do like the fixed lens camcorder format however

I hear you on the Pro Res size. The main reason they are so large, is instead of HEVC Long Gop, it is now ProRes all I Frames. One good side effect is that an all I Frame Proxy is much easier to edit on a timeline and for the Preview (many people use all I Frame Proxys for this reason). That said, I agree that the real soln is for PD to Support:

  • HEVC 10-Bit 4:2:2 Import and

  • 10 Bit 4:2:0 Export



...also, keep in mind that you don't need to keep the Proxy ProRes Files once you have finished with your project production (the following presumes you do keep your MXF files). If you keep all your MXF and Proxy Pro Res in the same folder when making your project:

  • You could always regenerate them if/when needed from the original MXF files, or even

  • Once PD releases HEVC 10-Bit 4:2:2 support, you could open up the "project_name.pds" file in a good text editor like "Notepad++" and simple do a Find and Replace changing "mxf.mov" to "mxf" and the project will now use the MXF files. Given the time time codes are all the same it should all work well, with the excpetion of changing in the project how PD will manage the 4 Mono Tracks.



Then again, HDD space is cheap now.

Thanks
Nathan
Looks like you are spoilt for choice on your XF705!

  • As you are in EU Stick with 25/50fps : If you ever need to do a project for someone in a NTSC country you can always change everything to 29.97/59.94 .. but just set, forget (and check) you are on 25/50fps

  • Looks like Filmic Pro (and a bunch of others) is available for the iPhone that lets you change your FPS which is good news



Some other things to try (if you are bored): Having a better play trying to import various formats into PD, the biggest limitation in PD is the formats it will accept in 4:2:2 sub-sampling is only ProRes and V210. PD seems rather happy to accept 8 or 10-Bit content. Many will argue 10-Bit is more important than 4:2:2 for consumer production (as there is no 4:2:2 consumer content anyway) as you get 1024 levels for 10-Bit over 256 in 8-Bit. Perfect for HDR. The next limitation is that unfortunately PD does not seem to support producing in (HDR) 10-Bit for any format that I can find (but I'm sure it will come at some point). Even so, 10-Bit could still be of interest to you if you want to do any grading of your footage.

So at present I'd suggest

  1. If you want a "Quick" to produce method in PD, I'd set your XF705 to shoot UHD, Wide DR, in AVC (8 Bit 4:2:0) @ 50fps and convert to MKV (for 4ch Audio converted to Stereo)

  2. If you want the "Best" quality and want to grade you footage in PD, I'd set your XF705 to UHD HEVC (10-Bit 4:2:2) @ 50fps. At some point PD will natively support this format but, in the interim you could use the "MKF HEVC to Pro Res" script that will take the Long GOP HEVC 10-Bit 4:2:2 footage from the XF705 and convert it to ProRes HQ all I Frame 4:2:2 that PD can edit. I've updated the util to make it (a bit) quicker and also changed the Audio Layout to match your preference. This Pro Res format will give you much more flexibility to grade, apply LUTS etc in PD. When PD adds a (HDR) 10 Bit output, you could then open up your old projects and simply produce in this new profile. I have no idea however when PD will add all of this. Only other option (for now) is to use another prog like Resolve.

  3. If your XF705 could shoot in a UHD 10Bit 4:2:0 profile (either HEVC or AVC) then it would be a great middle ground as you could just quick convert to MKV and I'm pretty sure it would import into PD. Unfortunately, I don't think the XF705 has this option.



Personally, I'd probably go with #2 (assuming #3 is not possible). It will be a pain to transcode to ProRes in the interim to use in PD but your original as shot footage will be kept in the best possible format the XF705 can produce while you wait for PD to support importing the 10:Bit 4:2:2 HEVC clips and allows for the production of (HDR) 10:Bit projects.

Thanks
Nathan
Quote

I'm not sure what project you're referring to as I haven't created or shared any projects for this thread, I assume your comments are actually meant for OP, right?


Sorry Mate - yes it was for NoudvR (updated my post).
Hi NoudvR

Here is some more info to consider:

  • PD Time Line: Looks like your timeline is in 25fps. Got to the Gear Icon --> General --> Timeline Frame Rate --> Change to 50 FPS (PAL)

  • MXF from 4 Mono to 2 Stereo Alt MKV: I've attached a modified script that now puts Mono Track 3&4 to Stereo Track 1, and 1&2 to Stereo Track 2



On the matching Frame Rate options, there is really only 3 ways this is done:

  • Get all devices (Display device, Cameras etc) on the one FPS or clean multiple (eg 25/50/100 etc)

  • Speed Up/Down: Works well of the FPS of the two clips are a close multiple/fraction. Eg, If you have 24 fps material, you could do "PAL Speed Up". Speed up your 24fps on the timeline by 4%. This will make the 24fps play a bit faster but will stop the need to do an uneaven pull down (frame drops or repeats). If on a 50fps timeline, your speed up 24fps material to 25fps, PD will then also just repeat each frame twice. Works very well and is used commerically to move "Movie" to "PAL". If you also want to keep the Audio on the 24fps material, you may need to do a Pitch Correction by 0.7067 of a semitone.

  • Other Pull Down Patterns: By Repeating/Dropping frames you can match two very different FPS Clips on the timeline (PD Does this Automatically). Downside is you get a repeating judder that (too me) look terrible. Eg putting 30fps material on a 50fps timeline

  • Interpolation: I don't know if PD has this option, but you can interpolate from one FPS to another, but the results (to me) look weired, kind of like going in and out of focus, as the sofware tried to make "new" frames at the new FPS by blending some frames from the original. FFMPEG can do this but I don't like the look (and it takes time as you have to render the clips) so I don't bother



The Real Answer is: Getting all devices on the same FPS:

  • Smartphones: The built in "Video" apps normally have very little control. On Andriod (no idea about iOS), you can get 3rd party apps that lets you set the FPS (as well as a bunch of other more "advanced" options) for shooting. On my LGV50, I've can use both FILMIC Pro / Cinema 4K that lets me select UHD/25p that works well in PD (the Filmic Pro seems a bit off 25fps but seems OK).

  • Drone: It too can probably shoot in 25 or 50p but you will need to check witht the MFR

  • Canon XF705: You "may" be able to switch your XF705 to be able to select NTSC Frame Rates (eg 59.94/60fps) but Canon have "crippled" the firmware (at least in my XF400) so you can NOT see the option to select NTSC Frame Rates (and vice versa for thouse sould in the USA). Certaily on my XF400, I can pay for a SW update to expose these other settings in the menu but...... then I'd have to switch my TV etc to NTSC frame rates to enjoy judder free playback. Just not worth it.



Thanks
Nathan
Quote
...., so I'm going to assume that we don't need to worry about any more MXF conversions.


I don't think that PD really support MXF well due to the issues about the exposing and subsequent mgt of the multiple Audio Tracks. The following is how Resolve does it. In the Clip Properties, you can select how to treat each of the Audio Tracks, make some Stereo, 5.1 etc etc from the mono tracks.



It is something that CyberLink needs to look at if it really wants to claim it can support MXF files (or that matter even other formats that do the same thing, eg on my XF400 I can also use MP4 to store the same 4 x Mono Tracks as the wrapper). The workaround about mixing the tracks in my utility, remuxing to MKV and then using "languages" in PD is a kludge. It is even more akward if you keep the 4 x mono tracks in the MKV remux then trying to manually deal with each track in PD to create say a Stereo or Surround mix.

Thanks
Nathan
".....1-2-1-2-1-2 etc."

This is a Pull Down pattern and used to covert video from one FPS to another. You want to avoid this where possible.

Make sure that you set your time line for your project in PD to the same FPS as the majority of the media you import. So if your media is 50FPS, make sure your timeline is also 50fps and that you produce at either 50fps or 25fps (which is clean pull down of dropping half the frames). For Slo Mo you would use 2x on the time line (clean pull down that just doubles each frame). The situation to try to avoid is mixing 23.976 / 50 / 59.97 etc fps media in one timeline. This can be hard to do if you also have footage from another source (say a phone) where the FPS is not (or can not) be set to the same frame rate.
I'd suggest with such a great camcorder you should look at shooting in 50fps all the time (I do on the XF400), as it not only gvies you smoother pans but you can then do 2x slo mo in post and still get 25fps. I presume the XF705 has a UHD 50P AVC profile and the util will remux the 50p AVC to MKV as well.

Also let me know if you want the order of the 2 Stereo streams swapped. At present the 1st is from Ch3/4, and the 2nd is from Ch1/2 but if you normally use Ch1/2 then it may be easier to have that as the default.
No Probs: Here is a few more batch files to play with:
- MXF from 4 Mono to 2 Stereo MKV: Will create 2 x Stereo tracks form Ch1/2 and Ch3/4 with AVC in MKV that shoud work in PD
- MXF HEVC to Pro Res Stereo and 2 Mono WAV Files: This will transcode (and take some time) the HEVC to ProRes with a Stereo Track in MOV + 2 x Mono.WAV files for the other audio tracks. These should all import into PD and work fine but be warned the MOV file will be 10x the size of the MKV but will keep your full 4:2:2 Video Steam in a PD compatible format.
- MXF HEVC to Pro Res Stereo and 1 Stereo MKA File: This will transcode (and take some time) the HEVC to ProRes with a Stereo Track in MOV + 1 x Stereo.MKA file for the other audio tracks. These should all import into PD and work fine but be warned the MOV file will be 10x the size of the MKV but will keep your full 4:2:2 Video Steam in a PD compatible format.
Thanks
Nathan

PS - let me know what combo you need and I'm happy to knock up a custom script.
...And here is what a MXF to Stereo & 2 Mono MKV file looks like in PD19.
FYI - I've updated a simple FFMPEG based utility that will (lossless) re-mux MXF to MKV so audio will work with PD19 (for AVC). More Info at https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/83622.page Works well for me on my Canon XF400 MXF clips (AVC based). This will not help with UHD HEVC 4:2:2 MXF support in PD19. If you need that you will have to look at other NLE (like Resolve). This "fix" however will make your 4 x Mono Audio tracks in a UHD AVC 4:2:0 MXF clip useable by remuxing them to MKV.
Thanks
Nathan
Thanks, that is what I thought so I've updated one of my PD Fix Utilities (based on ffmpeg) that will mux the MXF (or MP4) files with Multiple Mono Audio Tracks to MKV (lossless). You can then import these new MKV into PD19 and use the Languges option to expose the different Audio Tracks in the Timeline. There are two versions:

MXF (or MP4) to 4 Mono: This will put all 4 Mono Tracks and the Video into an MKV Container that PD 19 will like.
MXF (or MP4) to Stereo & 2 Mono: This will mix the 2 Mono Tracks from the Internal Stereo Mic to a single Stereo Track and keep the 2 x Mono XLR Tracks and Video as well. This is probably the best option, as you now get good stereo from the On Body Mic and with the seperate Mono tracks (eg from a Shotgun and/or body Mic) you can now individualy adjsut the audio.

To use, just unzip to a folder, place your MXF or MP4 files (can be in sub folders) in that folder and run the BAT File. It will create a MKV version for each MXF or MP4 Files (including files in Sub Folders).

It is pretty easy to edit the Batch Files for different combinations or number of Audio Tracks (eg A0, A1, A2, A3 etc) if needed.

Thanks
Nathan

Note: This will not help with 10-Bit 4:2:2 HEVC compatibility with PD19
Great to see that MXF AVC 4:2:0 is now supported (as this is the default format for my XF400). There is no issues in now importing the MKF clips into PD and the info correctly shows that it contains 4 x Mono Audio Tracks. 2 from the Scratch Audio Mics and 2 x XLR Inputs.

The issue is there appears to be no way to display, edit, or mix each of these tracks individually. Even if I split the Audio off in the timeline, and then paste to individual audio timelines, there is no way I can see to pick Ch1, Ch2, Ch3, or Ch4. The MKV workaround of using "Languages" does not appear.

I'm hoping I'm blind and just missed the option on how to expose each of the tracks, otherwise I'd say the the new "MXF Support" is not fully true.
FYI - I can manually create a profile where the SVRT Option becomes enabled.... However it does not work, the rendering is very very slow and the resultant file does not play.
So this "fix" was not to use the profile generated by SVRT but one that I manually created. Audio output is now correct at 48kHz.
I'm rendering my 4K/50p 150mbps AVC/AAC projects out to an SVRT created profile (MP4) and I notice that the audio has some ringing to it. When I looked at the output format I saw that the audio track is being reduced from 256kbps / 48 kHz (original file) to 256kbps / 24 kHz (produced file). I do not see any obvious option to leave the audio at 48 kHz. Any ideas before I dig further?
Thanks
Nathan
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