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Output H.264 in 16fps?
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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I have some 8mm movie film scanned into 2K ProRes H.264 files at its native speed of 16fps. I imported the scanned video files into a PD 17 project and added some titles and narration. I want to produce a H.264 2K file from the project at 16fps, but I don't see that in the output options. How do I get a 16fps file from PD?

Thanks!
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5740 Online
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I think there are two potential issues in trying to produce to a non-standard frame rate.

The first one - which you're looking for the answer to here - is straightforward.

You can create a custom profile and then open the Profile.ini file (where the settings are stored) in Notepad and manually change the frame rate to 16.0000. The file located in the C:\Users\[user name]\AppData\Roaming\CyberLink\PowerDirector\17.0\UserConfigure folder.

When you save the file and open up PD you'll see that custom option:



The main issue is that there's no way to set the project frame rate to 16 or any multiple of 16. Using 24 fps might be your best best as PD will use a pattern of 2 frames, 1 frame, 2 frames, 1 frame etc., for each of your source clip's individual frames, but you may notice a stuttering during preview.

If you produce to 16fps, however, the issue may actually go away since (hopefully) PD will be able to match the source frames to the produced output and everything should look smooth.
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote I think there are two potential issues in trying to produce to a non-standard frame rate.

The first one - which you're looking for the answer to here - is straightforward.

You can create a custom profile and then open the Profile.ini file (where the settings are stored) in Notepad and manually change the frame rate to 16.0000. The file located in the C:\Users\[user name]\AppData\Roaming\CyberLink\PowerDirector\17.0\UserConfigure folder.

When you save the file and open up PD you'll see that custom option:



The main issue is that there's no way to set the project frame rate to 16 or any multiple of 16. Using 24 fps might be your best best as PD will use a pattern of 2 frames, 1 frame, 2 frames, 1 frame etc., for each of your source clip's individual frames, but you may notice a stuttering during preview.

If you produce to 16fps, however, the issue may actually go away since (hopefully) PD will be able to match the source frames to the produced output and everything should look smooth.


Thank you very much, that helps a lot to know I can at least get it to accept a 16fps rate. Hopefully PD will actually output the file at 16fps... not sure if it's only capable of the presets or not. And yes, the preview does stutter as it duplicates a lot of frames. I was told by the company that scanned the film that the best quality output would be H.264 at 16fps and 20Mbps. I'll try producing that and see what it looks like on the computer and the TV.

Thanks!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 07. 2020 15:07

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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5740 Online
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One other thing I can add is to limit the use of motion graphcis on your timeline. Because PD's projeect frame rate will be 24fps, any motion or fades will be based on that rate and when 1/3 of the frames are skipped during producing, you'll end up with some skipped/jerky motions.

Using titles with a clean in/out appearance will look best, and the same goes for any transitions you might add.
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote One other thing I can add is to limit the use of motion graphcis on your timeline. Because PD's projeect frame rate will be 24fps, any motion or fades will be based on that rate and when 1/3 of the frames are skipped during producing, you'll end up with some skipped/jerky motions.

Using titles with a clean in/out appearance will look best, and the same goes for any transitions you might add.


Darn, so I have to undo all those cool titles and crossfades? : Actually, I did do a couple titles using the Star Wars crawl and others. I'll have to look at the output and see how bad it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 07. 2020 16:27

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cassb [Avatar]
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Quote


Darn, so I have to undo all those cool titles and crossfades? : Actually, I did do a couple titles using the Star Wars crawl and others. I'll have to look at the output and see how bad it is.


Unfortunately... it's bad. I need to figure out now how to produce a smooth video file with 29.97fps and 16fps clips in it.
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5740 Online
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The best way to get help and suggestions from other members would be to share one of the transferred 16fps clips here. Choose one that clearly shows some of the artifacts you're seeing so we'll have a good subject to work with.

The forum isn't set up to handle large file attachments so you'll need to upload it to the cloud and paste a shareable link to it here.

See the Share a file publicly section in this Google FAQ or this OneDrive support page if you need help using either of these services.

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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5740 Online
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As I was waking up I remembered this discussion. OP there didn't say what fps they were producing to, but it appears they were happy with the results.
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote As I was waking up I remembered this discussion. OP there didn't say what fps they were producing to, but it appears they were happy with the results.


Thank you! Actually, I produced a second H.264 file at 29.97fps and amazingly it looks acceptable. Obviously the source videos at 29.97 look fine, but the 16fps sources look OK to me. 16fps is always going to look jittery anyway because your mind can see the frames at that speed. So I think I'll go with 29.97 and create a BD-R from the video. Then I'll create an output file at the highest resolution and frame speed offered for archive.

I wish I could count on PowerDirector being around forever so I can recreate the project again in the future, but my first iteration of this video was in ULead MediaStudio Pro 7, which was discontinued and only runs in Windows XP. So I'll keep all the source material and the high-res output file.
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 4485 Offline
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cassb, do you plan on posting any of the 16fps source? What I'd probably suggest with such low fps is to look at any of the many available frame interpolation techniques, this would be outside of PD as PD does not really do frame interpolation. One would then create a 29.97 fps source that could be used for editing in PD and should improve fluidness vs basic PD duplication of frames.

Jeff
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote cassb, do you plan on posting any of the 16fps source? What I'd probably suggest with such low fps is to look at any of the many available frame interpolation techniques, this would be outside of PD as PD does not really do frame interpolation. One would then create a 29.97 fps source that could be used for editing in PD and should improve fluidness vs basic PD duplication of frames.

Jeff


Hmm... I could try that. I just watched a video that converted 16fps to 32 and it looks pretty good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYef7JyvBX4

Here's an interesting article about it... is this what you mean?

https://forums.kinograph.cc/t/using-ai-motion-interpolation-software-to-achieve-24fps-for-16fps-or-18fps-8mm-films/1786

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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 4485 Offline
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Quote Here's an interesting article about it... is this what you mean?

yes, article highlights one such piece of alpha software but others also available too. Since already 2K, I was guessing you don't need AI type video enhancement to enlarge and enhance resolution, just more interpolated frames for playback fluidity with other source. PD terrible at both aspects so one really needs to supplement techniques with other tools.

Jeff
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote

yes, article highlights one such piece of alpha software but others also available too. Since already 2K, I was guessing you don't need AI type video enhancement to enlarge and enhance resolution, just more interpolated frames for playback fluidity with other source. PD terrible at both aspects so one really needs to supplement techniques with other tools.

Jeff


I have been experimenting and it looks like this AI interpolation is going to be way more work than I want to do. The link I mentioned shows how to convert 16fps to 48 with DAIN-APP software, and then back to 24fps with AVIDemux. The DAIN-APP needs way more video card memory than the 8GB I have to convert at full 2K resolution. There are tools to break down the conversion so it works with less memory, but video output is compromised. I may try converting a small clip to see what it looks like at 24fps, but then I may decide to keep the 16fps jittery look because that's how I remember watching the movies from the projector.

PD does do some interpolation obviously, because it rendered the 16fps clips to 2K H.264 video at 29.97fps and the movie clips are jittery but not much worse than watching a projector. I might play with it a little more, but I want to finish this project! :
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 4485 Offline
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Quote PD does do some interpolation obviously, because it rendered the 16fps clips to 2K H.264 video at 29.97fps and the movie clips are jittery but not much worse than watching a projector. I might play with it a little more, but I want to finish this project! :

Might check that produced file in the timeline advancing frame by frame for visual inspection. PD simply duplicates a prior frame, it does not interpolate a new frame by any of the methods I'm aware of, simply a pure duplicate frame to achieve target fps. So yours will simply have ~14 frames duplicated every second.

Jeff
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote

Might check that produced file in the timeline advancing frame by frame for visual inspection. PD simply duplicates a prior frame, it does not interpolate a new frame by any of the methods I'm aware of, simply a pure duplicate frame to achieve target fps. So yours will simply have ~14 frames duplicated every second.

Jeff


Yes, there are duplicate frames, I guess that's what I mean by 'interpolated'... it converted the 16 to 30fps.
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 4485 Offline
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Quote Yes, there are duplicate frames, I guess that's what I mean by 'interpolated'... it converted the 16 to 30fps.

If that's the meaning of an interpolated frame for you, then yes, PD is fine as is with your 16fps footage. PD17 will always simply copy or delete timeline content source frames in some fashion to make it compatible with the produce profile fps specification.

Jeff
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote

If that's the meaning of an interpolated frame for you, then yes, PD is fine as is with your 16fps footage. PD17 will always simply copy or delete timeline content source frames in some fashion to make it compatible with the produce profile fps specification.

Jeff


Yeah, I did a small clip with that DAIN app and it's not doing a good job expanding the 16fps into 48fps. The interpolated frames have all kind of artifacts and weird colors. I attached one frame from the original, and the interpolated frames before and after it.
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote

If that's the meaning of an interpolated frame for you, then yes, PD is fine as is with your 16fps footage. PD17 will always simply copy or delete timeline content source frames in some fashion to make it compatible with the produce profile fps specification.

Jeff


Yeah, I did a small clip with that DAIN app and it's not doing a good job expanding the 16fps into 48fps. The interpolated frames have all kind of artifacts and weird colors. I attached one frame from the original, and the interpolated frame before it.
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before
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000000000000022.gif
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Original frame
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote

If that's the meaning of an interpolated frame for you, then yes, PD is fine as is with your 16fps footage. PD17 will always simply copy or delete timeline content source frames in some fashion to make it compatible with the produce profile fps specification.

Jeff


Yeah, I did a small clip with that DAIN app and it's not doing a good job expanding the 16fps into 48fps. The interpolated frames have all kind of artifacts and weird colors. I tried to attach one frame from the original, and the interpolated frame before it, but the server keeps timing out.
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before
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5740 Online
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Use a cloud folder on OneDrive or Google Drive to share your GIFs, and also please add one of your 16fps clips so the experienced volunteers who are trying to help you can work with it directly.
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