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Output H.264 in 16fps?
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5753 Offline
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Use a cloud folder on OneDrive or Google Drive to share your GIFs, and also please add one of your 16fps clips so the experienced volunteers who are trying to help you can work with it directly.
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote Use a cloud folder on OneDrive or Google Drive to share your GIFs, and also please add one of your 16fps clips so the experienced volunteers who are trying to help you can work with it directly.


I think the gifs got uploaded finally.

The clip is 2.3GB, which will take too long to upload/download. I'll see if I can figure out a way to save just a piece of it from Davinci Resolve, where I did all the color balance and digital cleanup.
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5753 Offline
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Quote The clip is 2.3GB, which will take too long to upload/download.

Your first post was 3 days ago, and uploading a 3GB file would take far less time than that even with a slow DSL connection. I have 1Gbps up/down so it's only a few seconds to access your content once it's in the cloud.
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote

Your first post was 3 days ago, and uploading a 3GB file would take far less time than that even with a slow DSL connection. I have 1Gbps up/down so it's only a few seconds to access your content once it's in the cloud.


OK -- well, Google was giving me an estimated 3.5 hours to upload. I'll give it another try and let you know, thank you!
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote

Your first post was 3 days ago, and uploading a 3GB file would take far less time than that even with a slow DSL connection. I have 1Gbps up/down so it's only a few seconds to access your content once it's in the cloud.


OK, here's a link to the file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1k2uPx86JKv6TlzrsmoTvWkbj6RerSJGK/view?usp=sharing

Let me know when you downloaded it and I'll remove the file. I only have so much space on Google drive. :
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5753 Offline
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OK. I've downloaded it and have saved a copy in this OneDrive folder, so you're free to delete it from your G Drive and anyone who wants to get a copy can still do so.

I'll play around with it and see what I can turn up...
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote OK. I've downloaded it and have saved a copy in this OneDrive folder, so you're free to delete it from your G Drive and anyone who wants to get a copy can still do so.

I'll play around with it and see what I can turn up...


That would be great, thanks very much for your help! If you come up with a way to interpolate this video to 29.97fps (or 30 I guess would work as well), let me know how and I'll have to do it for all 15 clips like this one. Each clip is one 50ft. reel of 8mm film.

Bryan
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5753 Offline
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So here's what I think: If I set the project frame rate to 24 or 30 and produce at the same rate, the videos seem perfectly smooth to my eyes. With the project fps set to 24 or 30 and produced to 16p, there's hardly any difference - although there seems to be slightly less smoothness. Not anything to worry about but enough incentive to stick with a standard output frame rate.

Once the clip is produced to 24p or 30p, you can bring it back into your project and then do all the normal edits (including Star Wars scrolling text) because everything will now be done at the project frame rate.

I made 4 sample clips and have shared them here. Try the 30p one with your current edits (and project frame rate set to 30) and see how it turns out, then try out the 24p clip with a 24fps project rate if needed.

A very easy way to do those tests is to rename your original clip so PD can't find it when you open the project up. Browse to the new clip when prompted and PD will use that instead of your original clip everywhere in the project.

Note that I put a mask (like an old TV) to block out all the sprocket holes and bleedovers, but you should be able to tell how well things work overall.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 12. 2020 16:41

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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote So here's what I think: If I set the project frame rate to 24 or 30 and produce at the same rate, the videos seem perfectly smooth to my eyes. With the project fps set to 24 or 30 and produced to 16p, there's hardly any difference - although there seems to be slightly less smoothness. Not anything to worry about but enough incentive to stick with a standard output frame rate.

Once the clip is produced to 24p or 30p, you can bring it back into your project and then do all the normal edits (including Star Wars scrolling text) because everything will now be done at the project frame rate.

I made 4 sample clips and have shared them here. Try the 30p one with your current edits (and project frame rate set to 30) and see how it turns out, then try out the 24p clip with a 24fps project rate if needed.

A very easy way to do those tests is to rename your original clip so PD can't find it when you open the project up. Browse to the new clip when prompted and PD will use that instead of your original clip everywhere in the project.

Note that I put a mask (like an old TV) to block out all the sprocket holes and bleedovers, but you should be able to tell how well things work overall.


OK, thank you for working on that... you are quick! : So how is it different importing a 30fps file into a 30fps project vs. importing a 16fps file into a 30fps project and rendering at 30fps? Wouldn't PD do the conversion during render the same way as you did when you rendered just the clip at 30fps and imported into a 30fps project?

I'm assuming the rendered output would look the same as when I play the 16fps clip on my 30fps timeline, correct? Or did you do something else to the file when you converted it to 30fps?
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5753 Offline
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Quote So how is it different importing a 30fps file into a 30fps project vs. importing a 16fps file into a 30fps project and rendering at 30fps? Wouldn't PD do the conversion during render the same way as you did when you rendered just the clip at 30fps and imported into a 30fps project?

Yes, but other things can interfere when you're making cuts, transitions and adding titles. This way, the clip is already converted and everything you do on the timeline will have ready-made, matching frames for PD to work with.

Quote I'm assuming the rendered output would look the same as when I play the 16fps clip on my 30fps timeline, correct? Or did you do something else to the file when you converted it to 30fps?

I think it would be hard to spot the difference, but the best way to know is to load up the 4 clips and see for yourself. I didn't do anything fancy when producing other than to add the mask and set the project and producing frame rates.

I also let my RTX 2070 do the hardware encoding which took a little over 2 minutes each time.
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote

Yes, but other things can interfere when you're making cuts, transitions and adding titles. This way, the clip is already converted and everything you do on the timeline will have ready-made, matching frames for PD to work with.



I think it would be hard to spot the difference, but the best way to know is to load up the 4 clips and see for yourself. I didn't do anything fancy when producing other than to add the mask and set the project and producing frame rates.

I also let my RTX 2070 do the hardware encoding which took a little over 2 minutes each time.


I'll give it a try and see. If it does look better to have the matching frames already in the clip, how did you process the file to come out at 30fps, so I can duplicate that on the other 14 clips?

Thanks!
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5753 Offline
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To produce to 30p, I placed the .mov clip on the timeline by itself; set the project aspect ratio to 4:3; set the timeline frame rate to 30fps; and selected the default AVC MPEG-4 2K 2048 x 1536/30p (40 Mbps) profile, like this:



If you want to produce to 24p, you'll have to create a custom profile but you can do that from inside PD by clicking on the "+" under Profile type: No external editing of Profile.ini is needed.
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 4493 Offline
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This is what I meant by frame interpolation. So I took your basic file and simply produced to 60fps, PD will simply copy frames as I had indicated to get from 16 to 60 so roughly speaking a factor of 4. So essentially when viewed at the frame level you will have ~4 duplicate frames followed by a new frame. It will vary, sometimes 3, sometimes 4 as on an average I need 3.75 more frames. I also took the same 16fps file and interpolated the frames to 60fps. Now I won't have duplicates, but several generated frames that each one has like 1/3 to 1/4 the motion to get to your next real 16fps frame.

The attached pdf shows this effect. I'm cycling frame by frame in PD with 60fps timeline. I put a red dot on the eye for reference. The video on the left is PD file of 16fps produced to 60fps. The video on the right has frame interpolation. I'm simply cycling from the 8th to the 12th frame. So, both images match at the 8th frame, counter lower left corner of pics, they match again on the 12th frame. However, you see 3 motion interpolated frames in between for the right side video. The PD file on the left simply jumps from frame 8 to frame 12 based on the face movement relative to the red dot as it simply has the same frame duplicated 3 times (9, 10, and 11 frames) and then finally a new frame. The video on the right you see relative motion of the face to the red dot for every frame. That's interpolated, not copied. Is it perfect, nothing is, but it can create much more fluid motion when viewed than jerks between individual frames of low frame rate source video. Of no real value to you as you are happy with what you call "interpolation" that PD does, I simply wanted to clarify there is no interpolation in PD and how interpolation can look vs simple frame copy.

If one would take and create a 30fps produced file, essentially ever other frame would be deleted to get from this 60fps to 30fps.

Jeff
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cassb [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 21, 2019 11:29 Messages: 20 Offline
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Quote This is what I meant by frame interpolation. So I took your basic file and simply produced to 60fps, PD will simply copy frames as I had indicated to get from 16 to 60 so roughly speaking a factor of 4. So essentially when viewed at the frame level you will have ~4 duplicate frames followed by a new frame. It will vary, sometimes 3, sometimes 4 as on an average I need 3.75 more frames. I also took the same 16fps file and interpolated the frames to 60fps. Now I won't have duplicates, but several generated frames that each one has like 1/3 to 1/4 the motion to get to your next real 16fps frame.

The attached pdf shows this effect. I'm cycling frame by frame in PD with 60fps timeline. I put a red dot on the eye for reference. The video on the left is PD file of 16fps produced to 60fps. The video on the right has frame interpolation. I'm simply cycling from the 8th to the 12th frame. So, both images match at the 8th frame, counter lower left corner of pics, they match again on the 12th frame. However, you see 3 motion interpolated frames in between for the right side video. The PD file on the left simply jumps from frame 8 to frame 12 based on the face movement relative to the red dot as it simply has the same frame duplicated 3 times (9, 10, and 11 frames) and then finally a new frame. The video on the right you see relative motion of the face to the red dot for every frame. That's interpolated, not copied. Is it perfect, nothing is, but it can create much more fluid motion when viewed than jerks between individual frames of low frame rate source video. Of no real value to you as you are happy with what you call "interpolation" that PD does, I simply wanted to clarify there is no interpolation in PD and how interpolation can look vs simple frame copy.

If one would take and create a 30fps produced file, essentially ever other frame would be deleted to get from this 60fps to 30fps.

Jeff


Thank you Jeff -- I understand interpolation better now. You're correct, PD is just duplicating or removing frames in the original clip to match the framerate of the timeline and output file. I am not sure what the interpolated video would look like at 30fps though. You can see in my previous post the poor results I got when I used the DAIN APP program. I just don't have the computing power probably to get the best results.

What program did you use to do the interpolation? Do you have a video file I could watch to see if it's worth the effort to do it?

Thanks!
Bryan
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