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TV Format - is a 24fps Option in the Works?
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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One for Cyberlink staff or Dafydd I guess.

Currently we have the option for 25, 30 (with or without Drop Frame Timecodes), 50, and 60fps (with or without Drop Frame Timecodes) but are missing 24 (with or without Drop Frame Timecodes). While the option exists to produce in 24fps it is odd we are missing the ability to select this in the timeline making frame accurate editing impossible in PD11.

Any idea if this option is on the horizon?

Thanks
Nathan PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
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Carl312
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Texas, USA Joined: Mar 16, 2010 20:11 Messages: 9090 Offline
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Quote: One for Cyberlink staff or Dafydd I guess.

Currently we have the option for 25, 30 (with or without Drop Frame Timecodes), 50, and 60fps (with or without Drop Frame Timecodes) but are missing 24 (with or without Drop Frame Timecodes). While the option exists to produce in 24fps it is odd we are missing the ability to select this in the timeline making frame accurate editing impossible in PD11.

Any idea if this option is on the horizon?

Thanks
Nathan

That is already in Powerdirector in the Produce module.

It probably will never be in the preferences for TV format. That makes Powerdirector conform to the TV standard in the various countries that have Television Broadcast. If there was a 24 frame standard in some country, then Powerdirector would have that choice.

It is not possible for Burn Disk because to the requirements to use the correct disk format for DVD or BluRay specs. Again Broadcast standards.



[Thumb - Custom AVC  Profile for 24 frames..png]
 Filename
Custom AVC Profile for 24 frames..png
[Disk]
 Description
Custom AVC profile for producing 24 fps.
 Filesize
53 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
3853 time(s)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jan 07. 2013 09:22

Carl312: Windows 10 64-bit 8 GB RAM,AMD Phenom II X4 965 3.4 GHz,ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB,240GB SSD,two 1TB HDs.

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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Hi Carl,
There are plenty of Camcorders that shoot 24fps & as you show outputting from PD11 is supported. The issue is there is no way to change the timeline to 24 ticks. It would not be how I would label it but PD11 uses the "TV Format" field to change the ticks on the timeline.
Thanks
Nathan PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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Carl312
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Texas, USA Joined: Mar 16, 2010 20:11 Messages: 9090 Offline
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jmone,

I suppose it depends on your use for the video.

Why is is so important to you that the timeline marks match your 24 fps you want to output?

The only time the timeline marks are that important to my use is when I am syncing a Video and Audio file to match lip movement (lip sync). When I have a 30 fps video, the closest I can get the audio to match lip movement is 33.33 Milliseconds in Powerdirector.

Carl312: Windows 10 64-bit 8 GB RAM,AMD Phenom II X4 965 3.4 GHz,ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB,240GB SSD,two 1TB HDs.

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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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It is critical for quality video rendering that the timeline and output fps match....but is hard to explain so I've created a sample 24fps Test Clip project. The project is very simple. It has 24 unique images that rotates around a clock once per second and beeps at the end of each second. This is repeated 20 times to make a 20sec clip for a total of 480 frames.

but.....

Since there is no 24fps tick timeline PD starts doing odd stuff. I've left this project set to NTSC (30fps). Now you will see when you open it up that each pic is still one frame but the whole project is now only 16-sec long as there are 30fps on the time line (eg the original 20sec * 24fps/30fps = 16sec).

OK Lets ignore that for now and pretend that the timeline scale does not matter and lets produce a AVC 1080/24p project.... & this is where it all falls apart. What PD rightfully does is employ a pull down pattern to get what it thinks is an 16 sec 30fps project into a 16 sec 24fps output, so in this case has to drop six frames every second from the timeline. The result is a 16sec 24fps file that has a total of 384 Frames from a project that had 480 Frames originally. So 96 frames (or 20%) of the unique content is now sitting on the cutting room floor and the resultant file looks terrible.

Now the news it not as bad for real life 24fps video (but still not great). What PD does in the editing room is it is adding the additional 6 frames on the time line. Eg it DUPLICATES 6 frames every second...but at least the elapsed time is correct. Now when you come to produce at 24 fps PD will then remove 6 frames every second.... but there is no GTree they will be the same six added. What happens when I split the clip in between these frames, move content on the timeline etc etc?

So in summary - without a timeline that can match your output frame rate you don't have frame accurate editing. It is odd that PD11 supports 24fps output but not a corresponding timeline. As a result it is very hard to recommend PD11 for authoring any 24fps content.
Thanks
Nathan
 Filename
24p.zip
[Disk]
 Description
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2323 Kbytes
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555 time(s)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jan 07. 2013 22:22

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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Carl312
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Texas, USA Joined: Mar 16, 2010 20:11 Messages: 9090 Offline
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Your 24 still images do show strange in Powerdirector 11 Ultimate.

I tried switching the TV Mode to 25 fps. PD just put in Black frames in some of the images.

So you are correct Powerdirector 11 is not frame accurate with 24 fps.

You should write a ticket to Cyberlink support.

It also might help if you PM Dafydd Bevan - SoftDeko (Our moderator)
http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/user/profile/4556.page

Carl312: Windows 10 64-bit 8 GB RAM,AMD Phenom II X4 965 3.4 GHz,ATI Radeon HD 5770 1GB,240GB SSD,two 1TB HDs.

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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Thanks - It has been reported to Cyberlink as part of the Beta Testing... I was hoping for an update from Dafydd or CL if they read the thread. PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Hi Nathan and Carl,
I'm chasing the 24fps, I didn't have anything new to write. Sorry for not responding.
Dafydd

Edited post: Minor edit to content.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 08. 2013 05:53

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Michael8511
Contributor Private Message Location: U.S.A. Indiana Joined: Jan 14, 2012 16:12 Messages: 374 Offline
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I'm new to the 24fps video or say I did not have a camera that would shoot it till a few weeks ago. I pick up a Canon camcorder and shot some video christmas eve and produce the clip using the h264 AVC at 24 fps. The video I produce if I look at the properties in windows it don't show me the FPS data and in MediaInfo it dont's show it just says frame rate mode: variable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 08. 2013 09:09

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PatC [Avatar]
Senior Member Private Message Location: Suffolk UK Joined: Nov 17, 2009 14:00 Messages: 156 Offline
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Hi Michael,

Try playing it in SplashLite Player(free).
The "i" at bottom left of screen brings up info on screen.
I don't have any 24fps input to try so cannot confirm.

Patrick

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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9876 Offline
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Michael -

I know your observation is slightly off Nathan's original question/request, but all the videos I produce at 24fps (in PD11 & CDR) show their frame rates correctly in PD's Properties & Media Info (example attached). I'm not sure why yours wouldn't.

Sorry Nathan. Not trying to hijack.

Thank you for your project illustrating what's happening with 24fps in PD. Even I understood it!

Side question - I was quite interested in a post Tom (Kmot) made in the ColorDirector forum about clips from the BlackMagic Cinema Camera... http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/26247.page I downloaded the clips to play with 1. the original mov file from the camera & 2. a 720p mpeg-4 version.

Even though they were both 24fps, the durations differed even though both clips began and ended on the same frame. Is that related to your illustration above? (image attached)

Cheers - Tony
[Thumb - 24fps Duration.png]
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24fps Duration.png
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24fps_CDR.txt
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 Downloaded:
362 time(s)

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Michael8511
Contributor Private Message Location: U.S.A. Indiana Joined: Jan 14, 2012 16:12 Messages: 374 Offline
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Ok I see what Nathan is talking about. It looks like when Cyberlink added the 24fps they forgot about the TV Format. Maybe it will be added in a update. I will say I'm sory for being of the original question about the TV format settings. I was thinking produce.

Yes PD 11 properties does show the right fps. Intel i7 5960X overclock to 4 Ghz 16 GB of ram.
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Tony - it looks like what you are seeing the the NTSC 1000/1001 fps issue, eg:

eg a 24fps Original when played at 23.976 NTSC frame rate becomes slightly longer

hence in your case:

the 43:09 original sec * 1001 / 1000 = 43:13309 sec long when played at the slower 23.976.

There are three basic options:
1) As per what you are seeing convert the time code from 24fps to 23.976 + no dropped frames = the play time has stretch.
2) Convert the time code from 24fps to 23.976 + drop frames (about one per 42 seconds) = the play time is the same (keeps being brogh back into time each 43 seconds)
3) Produce your project at 24fps not 23.976. No Dropped Frames, No increasing play time = All Good! Note: PD11 Supports a 24fps frame rate but you will need to setup your own custom profile and the std one is 23.976.
4) Record and produce at 23.976 No Dropped Frames, No increasing play time = All Good! Your camcorder may shoot "true" 24p only and not 23.976 NTSC.

Have I ever mentioned I hate the whole NTSC time code 1000/1001 stuff around!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 08. 2013 15:38

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Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Now if PD11 had a 24fps timeline with the "Use Drop Frame Timecode" option then you would have one further option
- 24fps original, placed on a 23,976 timeline (24fps with Use Drop Frame Timecode) --> produce with the Std 23.976 template = correct duration and no dropped frames. This is because in this case the duration each frame will be displayed changes

Note: PD11 will already do this on the time line for the 29.97/30fps and 59.94/60 fps by selecting Edit --> Preferences --> General) to TV Format: NTSC (60fps) and Use Drop Frame Timecode to Yes to get the 29.97 or 59.94 versions.
PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9876 Offline
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Thank you Nathan -

for taking the time to explain it in terms I could comprehend! I appreciate it.

Cheers - Tony
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Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Hi Nathan,
2013-01-09: The 24fps PDR display feature is still being worked on I'm told (by CyberLink). Best I can do at the moment.
Dafydd
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Dafydd - thanks for the feeback. It is great to know that they are working on it.

Ideally the timeline ticks should be user configurable but adding 24/23.976 to the existing options will cover all the existing common fps requirements. In theory there will still be issues with:
- cheap cams/phones/webcams that produce content at other frame rates like 15 or 22.5fps but really.... the quality is so compromised at this level I'm sure they will not notice!
- newer FPS formats like 48p (now on some film like the Hobbit but yet to see on video), 120p on the new GoPro and then experimental rates like 72p and 300p. These are still "rare".

As always - happy to test!
Nathan PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
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Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Hi Nathan,

Thanks for the input - always a good read

Just as an aside: Hobbit umm, not sure you'd want to watch it. The three young adults that went from my house over Christmas gave it a low rating (2 x 1 star and 1 x 2 star) and commented on feeling sick because of the 3D and being utterly bored for the last hour.

Dafydd
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Already seen it (in 2D thankfully, I'm also over the whole 3D thing - it is time for another 20 years rest till it comes back around again.... sort of like Yo Yos and other fads). I'm not surprised you tribe found it slow... LOTS was 3 Films for a 1,000 page book and they are trying to stretch the sub 300 page Hobbit into 3 movies PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
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Andyatone50 [Avatar]
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Yes love power d just done a movie on Canon d5 mk2 need 23.976 soon please :
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