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AVC 1080/50 or 60p Users - PD10 Review
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Summary of PD10 for AVC 1920 1080/50 or 60p users: Last Edited 25 JAN 2012. I'll keep this updated for as other things come to light

This thread is for AVC (h.264) 1920x1080/50 or 60fps users. Such files are being produced by a range of Camcorders such as the Pana 700, 800 & 900 series, CX560 & CX700, JVC GC-PX10 etc...+ this format is now a formal part of the AVCHD spec http://www.avchd-info.org/format/ (which is a subset of the broader AVC spec http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC ). Here are some notes on PD10:


Rendering Choices: There are three options you can use to produce the final project, and my recommendations (YMMV) at this stage are in order:
1) CPU (Fast video rendering technology unchecked): Slow but the most reliable output. While it does re-encode the Audio and Video streams it keeps everything in sync even with remuxing to other formats
2) Hardware Video Encoder (GPU): Works pretty well on my setup (nvidia) but in PD9 I used an ATI card and it this was not able to produce proper 50 or 60p output. I have not tested an ATI card in PD10 to see if it is fixed. It is quicker than CPU rendering and while the native PD10 output looks good any remuxing brings out an AV Sync issue (I presume there is a timestamp mismatch between the Video encode done with the GPU and the Audio done on the CPU)
3) SVRT: It is very quick and keeps the content identical to the original except for the segments that are altered (eg adding titles, overlays, transitions etc) which is rendered. There has been a great improvement in Patch 1129b with the native output looking good. I'm still hesitant to recoment this however as any remuxing shows issues at the transition points. If you want to use SVRT you may want to try enabling "Allow SVRT on Single...h.264" under the Preference --> Produce tab (note the warning given by PD10).

Other: There are still a couple of things hanging around from PD9 days that need to be addressed:
- SVRT Issue: As mentioned above the issues at the transition points between SVRT and Rendering are still present
- Format: The output file is slightly "non std", I'm not sure if it is the header information in the M2TS container or the stream info (esp the Audio Stream) but some other apps don't like it much. I did create a "FixPD9" batch file that may work if you have any issues with your output but YMMV (see the prior PD9 thread on the topic here - http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/15533.page ).
- Timeline: Unfortunately PD10 is still living in the '80's, and you are still stuck with either PAL (25) or NTSC (30) fps on the timeline so you cannot physically see all your 50/60 frames. This is a broader issue the devs should work on in letting the user specify what fps to use on the timeline as there is more than just 25 or 30 out in the real world.

Creating a Custom Profile using Intelligent SVRT: This is no longer required as from Patch 1129b, PD10 now support 50 and 60p options

Thanks
Nathan


=========== Original Post 2==============
Creating a Custom Profile using Intelligent SVRT: Under the "Produce" tab you can click on "Intelligent SVRT" and it will create a custom profile that matches the details of your clip. And for the most part this works but it has some bugs:
- It can create a Custom Profile that has a higher bitrate than the GUI (eg above 22500) so you cannot edit it.
- The profile has an error on the Audio side with the "Audio Mode" not filled out, and while the file created is 5.1 the description is 2.0. It appears this is a bug and can also cause PD10 to hang at 99% during the rendering. To "fix" this issue, you need to edit in Notepad the Profile.Ini file in "C:\Users\[USERNAME]\AppData\Roaming\CyberLink\PowerDirector\10.0" (note: this may be a hidden folder) and change "<Audio Mode>32" to "<Audio Mode>16"

Rendering Choices: There are three options you can use to produce the final project using the Custom Profile created above:
- SVRT: It is very quick and keeps the content identical to the original except for the segments that are altered (eg adding titles, overlays, transitions etc) which is rendered. This would be my preferred option but unfortunately I cannot recommend this as I see transition issues between the rendered and the SVRT segments of the output. If you want to use SVRT you may want to try enabling "Allow SVRT on Single...h.264" under the Preference --> Produce tab (note the warning given by PD10).
- Hardware Video Encoder: Works pretty well on my setup (nvidia) but in PD9 I used an ATI card and it this was not able to produce proper 50 or 60p output. I have not tested an ATI card in PD10 to see if it is fixed. At this stage, this is what I would recommend this rendering option (at least for nvidia users) as the quality looks good, and the speed is about "real time"
- CPU (Fast video rendering technology unchecked): Quality looks good though it is the slowest of the three options on my PC.

Other: There are still a couple of things hanging around from PD9 days that need to be addressed:
- SVRT Issue: As mentioned above the issues at the transition points between SVRT and Rendering are still present
- Format: The output file is slightly "non std", I'm not sure if it is the header information in the M2TS container or the stream info (esp the Audio Stream) but some other apps don't like it much. I did create a "FixPD9" batch file that may work if you have any issues with your output but YMMV (see the prior PD9 thread on the topic here - http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/15533.page ).
- Timeline: Unfortunately PD10 is still living in the '80's, and you are still stuck with either PAL (25) or NTSC (30) fps on the timeline so you cannot physically see all your 50/60 frames. This is a broader issue the devs should work on in letting the user specify what fps to use on the timeline as there is more than just 25 or 30 out in the real world.


Thanks
Nathan


=========== Original Post 1==============

I must have been in hibernation for a month as I've only just seen PD 10 is out. I'm currently downloading the trail of PD10 to see for us AVC (h264) 1920x1080/50 or 60p users if any of the following has improved:
1) Able to output above 24mbs without manually editing the ini file
2) SVRT working without corruption between the original and rendered segments
3) Better compatibility with the AVC spec for both the header and streams
4) Timeline that lets you go down to 50 or 60 fps (not the outdated PAL or NTSC choice)

I'm sure there were some other things I've forgotten - but I'm sure pj3c will remind me

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at Jan 25. 2012 06:33

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Not so good. I hope it is just the Trial SW but so far my finding are:

I was only able to produce test files with the GPU option (note: I have a nvidia GPU), as CPU is now disabled (you get a "the ouptut profile only support by hardware accelerated encoding). I was also unable to use SVRT at all even on files that PD9 created. I could get PD10 to agree that "Video Rendering not required" in the Edit tab but it would be red in the Produce tab.

1) Able to output above 24mbs without manually editing the ini file
No. Still stick at 22.5mps via the GUI but you can edit the ini manual as before. For some reason they have also taken away "High Profile" as an option and even if using the ini file edit hack the resultant file is still only Main or Baseline

2) SVRT working without corruption between the original and rendered segments
Unable to test as could not use SVRT. The output on GPU was fine but slow to render.

3) Better compatibility with the AVC spec for both the header and streams
No different, still something odd with how the audio is muxed in. Also all files are now tagged as either Baseline or Main (no High) which is wrong.

4) Timeline that lets you go down to 50 or 60 fps (not the outdated PAL or NTSC choice)
Nope - Still living in the '80's . The devs need to wake up on this and have a real timeline.

Overall I'd say PD9 is a better product for 1080/50 or 60p users but my experience may be limited by the Trial and that I can not get SVRT to work. Even so, there are no advances I can see in the other areas anyway.

Thanks
Nathan

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 18. 2011 22:47

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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CyberLink-Michael [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Europe Joined: Apr 18, 2007 04:05 Messages: 7418 Offline
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Hi Jmone,

SVRT can not work in the trial - it is a limitation and we plan to update this info to the Trial website.

br
Michael Technical Support

Werde Facebook Fan
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Hi Nathan,

Same questions and same problems here.
Pointless using the trial (as you have noted) as it cannot produce high profile and hence SVRT doesn't work. Dafydd assures me SVRT works for 1080p50 but no one has specifically tested the corruption problem with transitions. I did ask this but no-one has come forward to test. For me it would be pointless paying money if these issues haven't been addressed.

Panasonic SD9, Panasonic TM700, Panasonic SD600, GoPro HD Hero.
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Thanks pjc3 and Michael on the SVRT info. I'll take the risk and buy the upgrade tommorow and give it a go...If it does not work I will return it. PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Hi Phil,
If you can outline your test again and point me to some 1080p 50fps (from your Panasonic), I'll give it a go when I have a spare moment.
Dafydd
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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OK - Did the download of all the bits including upgrading to V1012

Creating an Intelligent SVRT Profile: Ok works a bit like manually editing the profile.ini file and attempts to copy the spec details for the the original and create a Custom Profile. And for the most part this works but it has some bugs:
- It can create a profile that has a higher bitrate than the GUI (eg above 22500) so you can not edit it.
- The profile has an error on the Audio side with the "Audio Mode" not filled out, and while the file created is 5.1 the description is 2.0.

99% Hang Bug: This audio error causes it to Hang at 99% during the rendering process and while it is 100% repeatable it can be fixed by either using the "Edit" button and respecifying the Audio Settings or if the video bitrate is too high then manually editing the profile.ini to correct the issue.

The following is the Custom Profile created by PD10's Intelligent SVRT and one that I have "fixed" though editing it in the GUI. You will notice that alot of settings get changed but I have highlighted the key one (Audio Mode) in RED to Fix this Hang

&
<Class>AVCHD
<Name>Custom Profile - 1
<Description>Extracted by IntelligentSVRT
<Output FileName>
<DescID>11124
<NameID>11125
<Group>2
<File Format Class>13
<Video Format Class>8
<Audio Format Class>8
<Stream Flag>3
<Field Order>0
<Attribute>10183
<Video BitRate>24965512
<Min BitRate>0
<Max BitRate>29965512
<Video Quality>0
<Video Width>1920
<Video Height>1080
<Frame Rate>50.000000
<Profile Level>65380
<Pattern>IBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBP
<Pre Processing>0
<Resize>1
<Flip Video>0
<Speed Quality Indicator>8
<Interlacing>0
<Encoder Mode>0
<App Type>2
<Dynamic GOP>0
<Deblock>1
<EntryMode>1
<Encoder Type>1
<Audio Layer>1073741824
<Audio Mode>32
<Audio BitRate>384000
<Audio Channels>6
<Audio SamplesPerSec>1
<Audio BitsPerSample>1
<Misc>0
<SamplesPerFrame>1152
&&

&
<Class>AVCHD
<Name>Custom Profile
<Description>Fixed
<Output FileName>
<DescID>11124
<NameID>11125
<Group>2
<File Format Class>13
<Video Format Class>8
<Audio Format Class>8
<Stream Flag>3
<Field Order>0
<Attribute>10183
<Video BitRate>22450000
<Min BitRate>11225000
<Max BitRate>22950000
<Video Quality>0
<Video Width>1920
<Video Height>1080
<Frame Rate>50.000000
<Profile Level>65380
<Pattern>IBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBP
<Pre Processing>0
<Resize>1
<Flip Video>0
<Speed Quality Indicator>6
<Interlacing>0
<Encoder Mode>0
<App Type>2
<Dynamic GOP>0
<Deblock>1
<EntryMode>1
<Encoder Type>128
<Audio Layer>1073741824
<Audio Mode>16
<Audio BitRate>384000
<Audio Channels>6
<Audio SamplesPerSec>1
<Audio BitsPerSample>1
<Misc>0
<SamplesPerFrame>1152
&&



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Nov 19. 2011 16:52

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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For completness, here is a IntelliegnetSVRT Custom Profile that I fixed just using notepad to edit the Audio Mode from 32 to 16. Rest is untouched.



&
<Class>AVCHD
<Name>Custom Profile
<Description>
Extracted by IntelligentSVRT
<Output FileName>
<DescID>11124
<NameID>11125
<Group>2
<File Format Class>13
<Video Format Class>8
<Audio Format Class>8
<Stream Flag>3
<Field Order>0
<Attribute>10183
<Video BitRate>24965512
<Min BitRate>0
<Max BitRate>29965512
<Video Quality>0
<Video Width>1920
<Video Height>1080
<Frame Rate>50.000000
<Profile Level>65380
<Pattern>IBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBPBP
<Pre Processing>0
<Resize>1
<Flip Video>0
<Speed Quality Indicator>8
<Interlacing>0
<Encoder Mode>0
<App Type>2
<Dynamic GOP>0
<Deblock>1
<EntryMode>1
<Encoder Type>1
<Audio Layer>1073741824
<Audio Mode>16
<Audio BitRate>384000
<Audio Channels>6
<Audio SamplesPerSec>1
<Audio BitsPerSample>1
<Misc>0
<SamplesPerFrame>1152
&&
PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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OK - Now that we have a working profile, back to the rest....
1) Able to output above 24mbs without manually editing the ini file
Intelligent SVRT will create a profile based to match you clip, but there are two issues
- It may create a profile that can not be edited in the PD10 GUI as the video bitrate can be a higer value than the GUI allows
- It does not create the audio settings correctly (see above)

2) SVRT working without corruption between the original and rendered segments
Part1: SVRT only works up till the point in a clip where a render is required. Eg if you add a title at the start of a clip there will be no SVRT. If you add a transition that overlaps the start of the secound clip then the entire clip will not use SVRT. This is a change from PD9 where SVRT would apply to all segments that did not need rendering.
Part2: The corruption in PD9 was the transision point from Rendering back to SVRT. As PD10 does not resume SVRT post a render I am unable to see if this has been addressed

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Dafydd, instead of trial/error/compare with the settings in the profile.ini file, is it possible to ask Cyberlink for the doco on what each line means and the corresponding values?
Thanks
Nathan PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
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Thanks Nathan,

If the start of a clip is trimmed (I use split & delete), will SVRT work? I usually "over" video both beginning and end of a clip (as many do).
Can you get around the lack of SVRT on a modified clip by adding a simple split prior to the transition?

Cheers Panasonic SD9, Panasonic TM700, Panasonic SD600, GoPro HD Hero.
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PS can you post a Mediainfo on the SVRT output please. Panasonic SD9, Panasonic TM700, Panasonic SD600, GoPro HD Hero.
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 5233 Offline
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Quote: Eg if you add a title at the start of a clip there will be no SVRT. If you add a transition that overlaps the start of the secound clip then the entire clip will not use SVRT. This is a change from PD9 where SVRT would apply to all segments that did not need rendering


Often the behaviour on some footage if the "Allow SVRT on Single...h.264" is not checked in Preference > Produce tab.

Jeff

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Nov 19. 2011 17:41

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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Thanks Jeff you are correct! So to update my post on SVRT, if "Allow SVRT on Single...h.264" is checked in Preference > Produce tab (note the warning given by PD10) then:
- SVRT will resume after a rendered segment, but unfortunatly a
- Video glitch can be visible at the rendered --> SVRT "join"

pjc3 - this is the same behavior with trimming as any other effect that requires a render, so if Allows SVRT on Single H.264 is on then it will resume SVRT after the begining trim is rendered by you may see a "glitch" at this point.
PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Here is the Media Info results of:

Original Clip


SVRT Clip (no edits)


GPU Render (no edits)


CPU Render (no edits)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 19. 2011 21:33

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
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Thanks for the testing. Panasonic SD9, Panasonic TM700, Panasonic SD600, GoPro HD Hero.
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Ugg - I was goint to shoot a short clip of a Test Pattern, and a transition and post the result so that the Render --> SVRT glitch could easly be seen but I've run into an issue that PD10 may not be frame accurate even at 25fps - http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/0/20086.page

Once I get that sorted out I'll be back to this other issue. PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
[Post New]
OK - I've uploaded the followinig - http://www.megaupload.com/?d=JNTAPBUC
1) Project File containing the original recording of a Test Pattern with a Title in the middle (note: not a great recording due to recording of a PC screen, poor lighting, and autofocus going in and out)...anyway
2) Example of a rendered file (Produce_24.m2ts) using SVRT and I can see transition issues in the Video as follows:
- in PD10 Timeline (only resolves to 25fps not 50) but have a look at 00:00:11:24 to 00:00:12:02 and you will see repeated an dropped frames at the point the title disappears and PD10 goes from rendering to SVRT
- in Arcsoft's TMT I see similar issue both at the start and the end of the Title (eg both SVRT to Rendering, and Rendering to SVRT)
- On the HTPC I see a very apparant issues at the end of the Title (eg Rendering to SVRT).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 19. 2011 20:56

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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FYI - CPU Rendering also works fine in the Full Versions. Added the Media Info in the post above PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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FYI - I've updated Post 1 as a Summary, let me know of any errors / obmissions etc. PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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