I'd suggest not using mp3 with variable bitrate settings as you saved, or better yet, simply use wav with PD for a lot less headache.

Jeff

Quote I'd suggest not using mp3 with variable bitrate settings as you saved, or better yet, simply use wav with PD for a lot less headache.

Jeff

Thanks for helping.

Does that imply that PD has known issues with mp3s?

Paul

Quote Does that imply that PD has known issues with mp3s?

Not generically, but mp3's have various flavors, some encoding settings have made some more challenging for use in PD and display symptoms as you observed, wrong duration. WAV usually very safe.

Try the suggestion as see if your "elephant" bug persists.

Jeff

Another way to see if there's something odd about your MP3 clips is to upload one to your Google Drive folder so other people can examine the details and test it on their systems.

I just tried the simple part of your test, importing an MP3 file into PD14 (14.0.4207.0) and using ctrl+shift to increase the duration/slow the playback speed. I tried it without saving the project, then again and saving the project, and again after adding it to the library, and I didn't see anything unusual. If I deleted the file, PD would prompt me to locate it. If I left the files intact, it always had the correct length.

Unfortunately I think you're creating headaches for yourself by contining to reuse file and folder names.

There are several ways that practice can come back and bite you unless you know where every possible cached copy resides, and it won't matter how many times you delete the original, because as soon as PD sees the same file name in the same folder, it will access the cached version.

I believe in the older thread you said you'd deleted all of PD's cached files that you could find. I assume that you used the Manually Delete tool, and did so with no project open so that PD could actually delete the "elephant" files (they can't be deleted if PD is using them).

To understand what's going on when you delete the files from the disk that are in your project's media library, and they somehow reappear when you reopen PD, please use this command to find out where the files really are located:



I'd be very interested to see a screen recording of that!

YouTube/optodata

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Quote

Not generically, but mp3's have various flavors, some encoding settings have made some more challenging for use in PD and display symptoms as you observed, wrong duration. WAV usually very safe.

Try the suggestion as see if your "elephant" bug persists.

Jeff

wav seems to work. I did it twice, and it worked both times. This might be better than the convoluted workarounds I've been using so far.

My flow (more details in a later post) involves mp3's with a specific naming convention. But using wav as the "exception" case is simpler than my current workarounds (which, maddeningly, don't always seem to work).

Thanks!
Paul Zimmer

Quote Another way to see if there's something odd about your MP3 clips is to upload one to your Google Drive folder so other people can examine the details and test it on their systems.

That's easily done: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bg1GkJ-GqBgMNULhsO8-PyQFRBZDOF0E

You'll obviously have to rename the "slowed down" one to match the original name to reproduce.

Paul

Quote A

I just tried the simple part of your test, importing an MP3 file into PD14 (14.0.4207.0) and using ctrl+shift to increase the duration/slow the playback speed. I tried it without saving the project, then again and saving the project, and again after adding it to the library, and I didn't see anything unusual. If I deleted the file, PD would prompt me to locate it. If I left the files intact, it always had the correct length.

Was this on PD14 or PD17?

Also, I assume you re-used the file name (which had been deleted from the project and so should be free for future use).

Thanks,
Paul

Quote

To understand what's going on when you delete the files from the disk that are in your project's media library, and they somehow reappear when you reopen PD, please use this command to find out where the files really are located:

That's not what's happening. I haven't tampered with files that are IN a project file, I've tampered with files that were ONCE in a project file, but have since been deleted.

It's odd that, if the file is still in its original location, PD puts it BACK in the library, even though it was deleted from the library before the project was written. But that's just an annoyance (or maybe a clue as to what's really going on).

What I did was:

Read the file into the library, drag it to the timeline, modify it, then write out the project
Delete the file from the timeline and the library, and WRITE OUT THE PROJECT.
(project should no longer have any reference to the file)
Start PD again, and, poof, the file is back in the library.

I then exited PD, deleted the file and replaced it with another file of the same name with different content. That's when all hell breaks loose...

Paul

Quote Was this on PD14 or PD17?

Also, I assume you re-used the file name (which had been deleted from the project and so should be free for future use).

Thanks,
Paul

Yes to both.

Thanks for sharing the sample clip! Another member reported problems when using MP3s recorded with the LAME codec here, although they originally suspected that it was the high bit rate. If WAV files don't show the problem, then that's an easy workaround.

Here's a quick screen capture of two tests I just did. I renamed the files rather than deleting them, but still there aren't any elephant issues on my system that I've seen:



YouTube/optodata

DS365 | Win11 Pro | Ryzen 9 3950X | RTX 4070 Ti | 32GB RAM | 10TB SSDs | 5K+4K HDR monitors

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My apologies if this ends up being a duplicate, but I submitted it and, after several minutes, it hasn't shown up. Fortunately for me, I'm paranoid, and I did a ctl-a ctl-c before I hit the submit button...

Quote
Unfortunately I think you're creating headaches for yourself by contining to reuse file and folder names.

But that takes us back to the subject of my original post - data management. It's hard to believe that a program that's been around as long as PD actually requires SYSTEM-WIDE uniqueness of file and directory names! Loads of new users are going to create a directory called, "Birthday Party", then move it to "Birthday Party - old" so they can create a new "Birthday Party". And loads of users are going to use the same background music in multiple videos. The only thing that makes sense, it seems to me, is to keep all project-specific data in a project-specific directory - and store that directory IN the project file. I'm still baffled. How do the rest of you structure your data? Do you really do all your work in a single directory? If not, do you change the preferences > files setting every time you switch projects? If not, don't you find it confusing to have your snapshots for all videos jumbled together in a single "export" directory? How do you clean out the unused ones? How do you FIND anything?

How do other people work with this tool?

In my particular case, I'm not free to name the directories and files any way I like. I create dance videos. Besides going to youtube, they're uploaded to a server - and that server has very specific naming conventions. I have scripts to build the data structure with all the correct naming. If I have to rename a file just to make PD happy, it creates a lot of headaches.

I know most people don't have this problem, but new users are NOT going to expect to have to use globally unique file and directory names. No other piece of software I've ever used has ever had that requirement.

Quote

There are several ways that practice can come back and bite you unless you know where every possible cached copy resides, and it won't matter how many times you delete the original, because as soon as PD sees the same file name in the same folder, it will access the cached version.

A fundamental rule of caching is that it must be transparent to the layer above (in this case, the user). Most users don't even know what a cache is. It's the tool's responsibility to make the cache transparent to users. Your OS is caching your data at half a dozen different levels, but you don't have to worry about them. Cache coherency must be managed by the entity doing the caching.

I'm back to my original question: how have generations of users dealt with this? What am I missing? Surely there are other people with multiple projects who move back and forth between them. How could the tool STILL not save the relevant (local) directory information in the project file?

Thanks,
Paul

Quote
I'm back to my original question: how have generations of users dealt with this? What am I missing? Surely there are other people with multiple projects who move back and forth between them. How could the tool STILL not save the relevant (local) directory information in the project file?

Thanks,
Paul

Yes of course there are, but there seems to be something specific to your machine that's at the core of these issues. To put it in the simplest terms, look at this statement:

Read the file into the library, drag it to the timeline, modify it, then write out the project
Delete the file from the timeline and the library, and WRITE OUT THE PROJECT.
(project should no longer have any reference to the file)
Start PD again, and, poof, the file is back in the library.

I then exited PD, deleted the file and replaced it with another file of the same name with different content. That's when all hell breaks loose...

Basically, you'd already noticed that there was a problem, and by using the same name you have guaranteed that the problem will recur.

I completely agree with everything you say about caching and how things "should" operate, yet here it seems like the most effective approach might be to change your workflow to avoid that specific situation. Different media folders, slightly different names, anything to avoid reuse should be the goal.

You could certainly spend more time trying to diagnose the why's of what's happening, or maybe try a shotgun approach and reset Windows (not necessarily a full reinstall from the ground up) and see if that resolves the issue. Other people have had problems with their specific Windoes user profile, and simply creating a new one gets things working properly.

YouTube/optodata

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Oh, and before you all conclude that PD simply caches based on path+filename - it's not that simple.

This morning I created a brand-new directory, copied the 24-sec mp3 into it, started PD, and it showed up as 19 sec long. I didn't have screen recorder running, and I haven't been able to reproduce it (this problem is squirrely).

When I get back from dance practice tonight, I'm just going to let the screen recorder run while I play around and see if I can catch it in the act. Then I'll pull the video into PD and cut down to just the problem.

Thanks,
Paul

If you prefer to use mp3 vs wav and want to address your basic mp3 compatibility issue with PD, often it's this setting which you are using in Unchained.mp3 that can create some issues for some.
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 135 kb/s
Minimum bit rate : 32.0 kb/s

If you switch to a constant bitrate mp3 encoded stream it often has less issue, like:
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 128 kb/s

Jeff

Quote Oh, and before you all conclude that PD simply caches based on path+filename - it's not that simple

I haven't reached any conclusions here. Jeff's suggestions to switch to .wav files, and my idea to avoid reusing file names and folders were aimed at trying to avoid the issue altogether.

As I pointed out in an earlier PM, there's an issue very similar to this where motion tracking that was applied to one clip in one project would also be applied to the same (or an identically-named) clip if it was ever opened in an unrelated project afterwards. I don't yet know if this is in any way part of this issue or not, but it's an example of why unique names can be less problematic.

Now instead of avoiding the issue you'd actually rather pursue the root cause(s), be sure to take things in small steps and see where they lead. For instance, save 2 copies of a test project, one with the library contents saved and one without. If you're using the sample clips you've already shared, you can simply attach the projects here, and we can quickly check the PDS files for consitency and content.

Another easy test is to use the Pack project materials.. option under PD's file menu to do the same thing, and see what happens when you open up the packed versions in PD.

Near the point when we finally were able to reliably reproduce an issue where PD wouldn't generate any audio waveforms, a forum member found that using Pack project materials.. actually fixed the issue (and prevented Cyberlink from duplicating it on their end!), so it's something to keep in mind here as well.

YouTube/optodata

DS365 | Win11 Pro | Ryzen 9 3950X | RTX 4070 Ti | 32GB RAM | 10TB SSDs | 5K+4K HDR monitors

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I've been working with Cyberlink tech support on a couple of issues recently, and I wonder if something I've learned might apply here.

Open up regedit and go to Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\CyberLink\MediaCache5 (if that key is present) and delete all the subkeys. Do the same thing for Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\CyberLink\PowerDirector14\MediaObj\MediaCache5 and then see if the elephant is no longer in the room...

(PD will regenerate the cache files whenever you import clips, so there's no damage from deleting these)



YouTube/optodata

DS365 | Win11 Pro | Ryzen 9 3950X | RTX 4070 Ti | 32GB RAM | 10TB SSDs | 5K+4K HDR monitors

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Hey optodata,

Thanks for helping (I'm sure it took some time to put that together). Unfortunately, it didn't work. I did all the deletes, then started PD and went into one of the test directories that has the 24 sec clip. Loaded it - 48 seconds (silence at end).

Paul

Quote I've been working with Cyberlink tech support on a couple of issues recently, and I wonder if something I've learned might apply here.

Open up regedit and go to Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\CyberLink\MediaCache5 (if that key is present) and delete all the subkeys. Do the same thing for Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\CyberLink\PowerDirector14\MediaObj\MediaCache5 and then see if the elephant is no longer in the room...

(PD will regenerate the cache files whenever you import clips, so there's no damage from deleting these)

Quote Thanks for helping (I'm sure it took some time to put that together). Unfortunately, it didn't work. I did all the deletes, then started PD and went into one of the test directories that has the 24 sec clip. Loaded it - 48 seconds (silence at end)

OK. That was a single idea and now we know it's not the solution.

What happens if you try the steps I suggested starting in the 3rd paragraph of this earlier post? Even though PD14 won't ever be updated again, I think it would still help to understand what's going on.

If the issue might be present in current versions, the problem can be reported and addressed by Cyberlink. If the problem turns out to be with your workflow, steps can be taken to avoid encountering the elephant, or at least reducing the likelihood of it appearing.

YouTube/optodata

DS365 | Win11 Pro | Ryzen 9 3950X | RTX 4070 Ti | 32GB RAM | 10TB SSDs | 5K+4K HDR monitors

Canon Vixia GX10 (4K 60p) | HF G30 (HD 60p) | Yi Action+ 4K | 360Fly 4K 360°

Sorry, I got busy finishing a promo video I was doing for someone, and fell behind on this thread. Were you referring to this paragraph?

Now instead of avoiding the issue you'd actually rather pursue the root cause(s), be sure to take things in small steps and see where they lead. For instance, save 2 copies of a test project, one with the library contents saved and one without. If you're using the sample clips you've already shared, you can simply attach the projects here, and we can quickly check the PDS files for consitency and content.

Quote

OK. That was a single idea and now we know it's not the solution.

What happens if you try the steps I suggested starting in the 3rd paragraph of this earlier post? Even though PD14 won't ever be updated again, I think it would still help to understand what's going on.

If the issue might be present in current versions, the problem can be reported and addressed by Cyberlink. If the problem turns out to be with your workflow, steps can be taken to avoid encountering the elephant, or at least reducing the likelihood of it appearing.

Yes. Those steps and the pack project materials step in the next paragraph. All are simple and should be quick to do, and hopefully we'll have more insight into what's going on afterwards.

YouTube/optodata

DS365 | Win11 Pro | Ryzen 9 3950X | RTX 4070 Ti | 32GB RAM | 10TB SSDs | 5K+4K HDR monitors

Canon Vixia GX10 (4K 60p) | HF G30 (HD 60p) | Yi Action+ 4K | 360Fly 4K 360°