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Hi Hicham
All my HDMI cables are category 2 high speed HDMI cables with ethernet and are only 1.5 meters in length. They easily exceed the HDMI 2.0 specification. I tried swapping the one out for the 960 into the 65" curved UHD LED LCD 3D TV, and there is no change to bug #4 it still occurs.
FWIW, ffmpeg lav filters with MPC-HC does do the same video files with the same subtitles all fine without it being super large like PDVD15 so I'd be quite suprised if it was something hardware related like a cable. Whats more telling is that user preferences about what size the subtitle font in PDVD should be makes zero difference and I think that test result demonstrates there is a bug there in PDVD.
I am happy to assist Cyberlink in anyway with debug builds, providing info, remote access to my HTPC etcetc. For remote access I am in the GMT +10 timezone, I would be happy to set it so you can just log on without me being present as I suspect setting a time for all parties could be problematic. I am happy to discuss this further via email to keep it private, please use the email address in my support tickets.
Thanks
Thanks
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Hi Hicham,
Bug #3, I concur when PDVD15 is installed OK it does not occur and video playback is OK. I totally uninstalled including registry cleaning and app data locales, rebooted, installed original version, rebooted, patched to 2003, rebooted, patched to 2205. Now it works. I still feel there is a problem as both bug 3# and bug #1 manifested themselves in some sort of corrupt/incomplete patch process. It's an issue especially because it was a silent failure - I was given no notice as a user the patch did not occur correctly before you saw from my SR number that it didnt work right. The patch process needs to be robust and clearly tell a user when things arent patched right. I realise this is probably getting into the zone of a "feature enhancement" and not a true bug, so I'm happy to consider bug #1 and bug #3 closed. Bug #2 is reasonably classed as a MS Windows build specific bug so thats closed from my point of view. I now see the following:
PowerDVD Version: 15.0.2205.58
SR Number: DVD150828-08 (DVD150310-04)
TR Number: TR151005-019
I've conducted additional testing. HEVC files are playing back fine including 60 FPS Main 51 3840x2160P. However Main 10 L52 UHD content still remains a stuttering mess because PDVD15 doesnt do full hardware decoding of high colour bit footage it resorts to software and becomes overwhelmed. I appreciate again this is probably a "feature enhancement" and not a bug. Oh well, maybe PowerDVD version 16 will do it 
I do however have a new bug report #4. This is the problem where people running UHD displays are going to be running 300% DPI font scaling because that is the default recommended by Microsoft for large displays like my 65" UHD 4K display. What happens as you know since I've reported this many times in the past, is that the subtitle font size user preference is not respected in the Cyberlink subtitle settings section. Regardless of the font size in the user preference for the cyberlink subtitle settings, its always ridiculously huge and it really does wreck video playback. An example is below:
http://s8.postimg.org/3nx262x85/beta.png
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Hi Hicham
Bug #3 where no video is displayed its all just a big black or green screen, this is the big one with this build. From previous support tickets I understand you dont have a GTX 960 and you just have a 980 in your test lab internally. This is an important difference because mine is a newer chip that has a new revision of the nvidia video decoder engine in it, amongst other changes it can now do full hardware decoding of HEVC. I'm also on Windows 10 and running a 4K UHD desktop @ 60 Hz through HDMI 2.0. You asked for a dxdiag.txt here is the pastebin URL for that:
http://pastebin.com/mSFA4r8w
SR Number: DVD150310-04
TR number: TR150401-016
Version: 15.0.1510.58
Version Type: Ultra Version
Please note with bug #3 it replicates everytime on my hardware and software config. It did it on windows build 10565 and the current 10568. It did it on Nvidia driver version 358.50 and its also replicating on driver version 358.59. It happens regardless of video type and regardless of having video enhancements on or off. I currently do not have AnyDVD HD installed. Other players such as windows media player and ffmpeg lav filters/mpc hc work fine.
With bug report #1 where powerdvd 15 thought it had a newer version than the beta patch, Im afraid I cant say much more than what I already did. When I first patched it to this beta build, a window popped up saying there was updates available when there is not.
With bug #2, something is wrong with your crash reporting system if you cant see my beta crashes being submitted. One of them for sure I put in my email address as used in the support tickets. Your either loosing data or the data is somehow not getting into your internal system, or youve blocked me from submitting crash reports. In the end though, I suspect this was a windows 10 build 10565 error as I cant replicate it on 10568 anymore. If it does happen again on build 10568 of windows 10, I will ensure my email address is included and I will notify in this thread that it happened. Unless someone else can also replicate it in the meantime I think its fair to say it was a windows build specific problem.
To my mind fixing bug #3 is critical cos without a fix, I cant do video playback. Since I cant do video playback I cant also test if youve fixed the problem in prior builds (which Ive reported numerous times) where the subtitles at UHD resolutions with high DPI font scaling on say MKV encoded subtitles no longer is so large it wrecks the video playback. Youve been a bit cryptic to say other "minor buig fixes" so I dont know if this is included as a fix in minor bug fixes or if its still outstanding for a fix.
Thanks
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Ok on Bug Report Number 3, I was previously on Windows 10 x64 build 10565. The reason for me being on the windows insider builds is because 3D bluray playback wont work correctly without it, refer to my "bugs bugs bugs" thread on this forum for details. So today I have progressed to Windows 10 x64 build 10568 and I have done more testing. Bug report number 3 with PDVD crashing on startup of playing a file no longer replicates. So either the crashing on startup is intermittent or it was a windows bug thats now fixed in build 10568. If it does crash again, Ill use the cyberlink crash reporter to send the details to you.
Sadly though bug report number 2 on windows build 10568 is not fixed and this bug still replicates. I get either black or green display when trying to view videos. No video is displayed but the audio plays OK I can hear it.
Windows media player and ffmpeg LAV Filters/MPC-HC all work fine on video playback with build 10568
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Yep, youll need a video capture hardware card and then software to do it
Youll probably face a steep learning curve about video codecs, container formats, DVD authoring etcetc
Have fun
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Hi Hicham
- Once again youve posted a beta with no instruction with how the community should engage as testers into this build. Do you want bug reports in this thread or submitted to support via tickets or something else?
- Bug Repot Number 1: On first running the new version, I unexpectedly was presented with an upgrade powerdvd window claiming there was a patch to enhance the experience when this is the latest beta patch AFAIK. Something is wrong with the versions that the patch checker knows about.
- Bug Report Number 2: There is no video display on video playback. Just black screen. Happens indepedantly of film type. Ive tried turning off/on video enhancement and this doesnt fix it. I run UHD@60HZ through HDMI 2.0 on Win 10 x64 via a Geforce 960.
- Bug Report Number 3: Various crashes on closing the app or starting the app. I submitted them all via the cyberlink error report submission window that automatically comes up on crash.
Following these problems I tried reinstalling the patch but this has not resolved it. On the initial patch I elected not to keep user preferences and I observed all these 3 bugs, then on the second patch run to see if reinstalling the patch fixed anything, I elected to keep user preferences. This hasnt changed any bug behaviour.
Overall this build is badly broken and should not progress any further past beta without rectification
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For anyone else suffering from the 3d playback bug (not the subtitles wrecking the video display at UHD and high DPI font bug) the 3d bug can be fixed by:
1. Going to the windows 10 insider build 10565
2. Going the NVIDIA beta driver version 358.50
Those two changes will fix the 3d playback for setups like mine
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Ok understood
a) I looked at your symptom screenshot. Is the source content 2d or 3d? Im having major dramas myself with 3d playback on powerdvd software. I can however do 2d movies just fine from bluray disc to say h264 MKV encoded stuff on UHD@60hz. Can you post a sample so I can see if I replicate too? Does it happen on any type of film encoding or container forma or does it happen only on specific typest? e.g. MP4, MKV, H265, HEVC, VC-1, MPEG2 etcetc
b) When you say problems in UHD above 30hz, do you mean the actual refresh rate of the display above 30hz or do you mean video content at higher frame rates than 30 FPS, say high motion 60 FPS films?
c) I was in the same case as you with my HDMI 2 display ports for my UHD display. Each of the ports are HDMI 2. However I was not until I carefully read the manual which is hundred pages plus did I actually discover that despite all ports being HDMI 2, some of them dont support certain features. Like only one port does ARC, one port does 60 hz with high colour gamut etcetc. I wouldnt be suprised if yours is the same and you need to change the port your using. Read the manual thoroughly.
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HDMI 2.0 supports UHD @ 60hz. Since you now have a Geforce 970 with HDMI 2, the rest of the chain needs to be looked at. i.e.
1. Does your display support HDMI 2? Do you have it plugged into the right HDMI 2 outlet? Many displays while having HDMI 2 only support UHD @ 60hz on specific HDMI outlets
2. Is your HDMI cable a high speed HDMI cable?
3. Are you sure your not messing up the signal chain via some craptastic convertor or adapter?
4. With the latest windows update and Nvidia drivers, what in the NVIDIA control panel do you actually see? Is 60 hz available as an option at UHD resolution? If you can select UHD @ 60hz what happens then?
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Steve I respect that in the past youve been helpful to other topics on the Cyberlink forum. I'm sorry but in this case, your clearly not across what the issues are, and the questions your asking are nonsense. For a proper discussion, you need to be across stuff like
- X86 and X64 CPU architecture, specifically ring 0 kernel mode and ring 3 user modes, how the modes are different from each other
- MS Windows architecture, how they have implemented CPU modes in their operating system etcetc
- What debugging tools like driver verifier from MS does, how it is used, what it means
Ignorance and superstition about irrelevant stuff with registry cleaners and antivirus etcetc wont make any effective contribution to this specific problem. The fact of the situation which your not understanding is that, in the special driver verification mode that checks ring 0 kernel mode processes for valid operation, the clhelper.exe cyberlink process is in fact making illegal calls and its due to programming errors from Cyberlink. The only fix is for Cyberlink to fix their code, and compile a new version, and test it properly before releasing it to production. Its got nothing to do with registry, with antivirus, reinstall the software or whatever else a layman might imagine up as the cause like you have. If your interested, theres nothing stopping you from learning about these things and trying it for yourself - its not elusive knowledge its just fundamentals of computer science and the x86/x64 Windows platform.
As to your claim about why others arent complaining about bugs in the software. There is a significant portion of the HTPC community who avoid PowerDVD because they consider it "bloated and buggy". And on 3D Bluray disc specifically, many fellow enthusiasts on HTPC community sites have suggested to forget about using PowerDVD for 3D playback because its going to be a big hassle and consume allot of time in troubleshooting to get it to work, theyve suggested using a cheap standard alone player which is about the cost of the PowerDVD15 software. Personally I've bought every version of PowerDVD since 10 and I'm a bit of a fan, even thought I really shouldnt be and probably should have cut my losses a long time ago given the lack of quality and ongoing bugs in their software. Anyway the reality is that PowerDVD remains the only real x86/x64 software that does bluray menu playback and thats why Ive stuck with it. To say that people arent annoyed with bugs in Powerdvd is simply untrue when you consider the content on HTPC enthusiast forums and blogs etcetc.
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In my quest to troubleshoot the problems Im having with BSOD's when attempting 3D bluray disc playback (whatever happened to buying commercial software and having it just work??!!), I decided to configure my HTPC in the MS driver verification mode, using the default check conditions, on all drivers. Upon rebooting, when I entered into the Cyberlink GUI and attempted to playback my 3D bluray disc, the driver verifier threw a driver verifier detection violation stop code
When I rebooted and did an analyse -v in the windows debugger to get the microsoft SDK to analyse the crash dump, it blames the process clhelper.exe which is a cyberlink powerdvd component
Why are you releasing software to production that doesnt even pass basic Microsoft testing tools?
The main problem is that NVIDIAs drivers are BSOD'ing when I try to run 3D mode processes in full screen and I had assumed it would be NVIDIAs drivers that would show up as at fault when in the device driver verification mode. However, it turns out its your software that Microsofts debuggers are saying is making illegal calls in kernel mode processes
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Hi Hicham
The ticket number is CS001507339
Today the latest response from support is that your organisation cant replicate it in your test lab, I should see if Im up to date with windows update and then I should go hassle NVIDIA about the BSOD on my own cos you guys cant replicate it.
While Im trying to be a fan of your software, I am rightly critical of your testing processes. Your internal testing process that your company describes in the support ticket says your using a GTX 980 to try to replicate the problem. This is a significantly different configuration item compared to mine as the GTX 960 which I use has a totally new version of the full hardware video decoder engine in this new GPU architecture amongst several important differences compared to a 980. You dont mention in the support ticket what your display config is either, as thats important with it being HDMI 2.0 UHD @ 60Hz. Its like you guys are an airplane manufacturer, I the customer say the airplane doesnt work, then you guys say well we say it does but we have a different model airplane were using to prove it does work....
You seriously need to fix your testing and release processes like I describe above or your going to forever be treating paying customers as testers and having the current situation of PROD effectively been where the software is properly tested. If you cant afford the hardware diversity internally do it in a BETA either closed or public. Labelling past PowerDVD15 releases as PROD releases is a great shame on your company because the quality of them is very poor and is no way reliable commercial software.
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A furstrating time indeed with 3D Bluray playback! I've spent hours on hours diagnosing this. Cyberlink support have claimed they arent able to replicate the issue. With my hardware and the drivers I nominated in the below thread over on the Geforce Forums, configure a 3D desktop resolution and do anything but Powerdvd 15 3d bluray disc playback, and the system will BSOD hard crash everytime, with Nvidia's driver being blamed for the crash:
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/881779/bsod-win-10-x64-gtx-960-hdmi-uhd-60hz-repeatable/?offset=2#4686481
It escapes me how Cyberlink cant replicate this problem. Just goes to show how limited and ineffective their internal testing is.
So round four billion in this drama is how I can apply pressure now to NVIDIA to fix it......And wait months more....
At what point does a sane person just stop using HTPC's for bluray menu playback and 3D playback, and simply use a cheap 3d standalone player?
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Im not suprised that Cyberlink wont comment on future product features.
The core competitive advantage of PowerDVD 15 is bluray menu playback. While the free open source video softwares such as the combination of x64 LAV Filters and x64 MPC-HC and AnyDVD HD does things like try to choose the longest title in the bluray disc and play that, its really only PowerDVD that has proper bluray menu playback.
If it werent for that, lets face it, LAV filters decodes more file types including HEVC MAIN 10 which currently PowerDVD15 wont do, and generally the FFMPEG based splitters and decoders are more efficient, faster, and more robust than anything else.
This is why I feel that Cyberlink must support UHD Blurays in a new version. Or they retire the product. The Cyberlink free competitors wont have decoding of Atmos, wont have full menu playback of the UHD bluray menus etcetc
There is some secondary core reasons for using PowerDVD 15, such as 3D bluray playback. However for me at the moment this has been bugged for months and is a real pain.
Its my hope Cyberlink will get serious about being the premier media player, and get better at doing the beta test process, and get better at fixing bugs.
If PowerDVD goes down like TMT, theres feature holes left in competing products
EDIT: And what worries me about Cyberlinks choices, is the general trend to move away from disc playback to digital services. I have an extensive disc collection. I dont think of myself as a video phile, but I do consider it absurd that even so called 4K netflix is anywhere near the image quality of decent bluray disc titles. It seems people like me are becoming more fringe against the general sheeple wanting the convencience of instant viewing. If bluray menu playback is becoming fringe, and if the new generation of UHD Bluray format is "just another SACD format only for fringers" then I worry to think if this could be the effective end of PowerDVD development.
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Yep for sure
It does different frame rates pretty well, including 60 FPS stuff
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Hi Hicham,
I am into the support process with a ticket on 3d bluray playback not working on windows 10 with my setup. Since 7/9 there has been no resolution of that problem with today being 25/9.
With the other oustanding bug being subtitles are broken at 4K resolutions on necessarily high DPI desktops for HTPC large (e.g. 65") TV displays. This gets to the core of why your testing and release processes are broken.
I first raised this issue with complete configuration descriptions, test results including screenshots showing the problem and replication instructions, in the last beta.
Why hasnt the beta bug reports been actioned in the beta? If Cyberlink makes the decision to goto prod without fixing a beta bug report, why then does a user have to go and start a whole new ticket for prod support when it was already all disclosed in the beta? Why arent you carrying over unresolved beta bugs into your prod support and giving users tickers on those? Why do even you bother having a beta if you dont track the beta bugs testers report and fix them in the beta?
I will raise a ticket, but it'll probably take multiple responses before I get beyond boilerplate nonsense thats not relevant to the problem and/or asks for information I already supplied in the ticket. Your support team tries to tick and flick most support requests off their que as quickly as possible and given prior experience, they often dont actually read a new support ticket with any reasonable level of attention. It takes multiple goes of responses to get to the actual support and by that time weeks have passed.
Regards
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I've been thinking about my statements on the core benefit of powerdvd 15, being bluray menus and BD-J. But is that all? I've come to think maybe not.
So traditionally open source software has gotten allot of attention from HTPC enthusiasts as the best way to get the best image quality possible from reduced bitrate and reduced resolution video content. Typically this has involved a combination of LAV Filters, MPC-HC and MadVR. I am critical of this strategy for various reasons.
The first one, obviously, is if you are a HTPC enthusiast then surely quality matters. That means using bluray disc, not netflix or transcoded films. Open source bluray disc playback, with menus, BD-J and the like, is well, awful at best.
My key reason though is that with modern video codes such as HEVC and high resolution footage such as 4K UHD, it is necessary for even the most powerful CPU to leverage GPU acceleration to render smooth, no frame drop video. To do this with LAV filters, users as of release 66 can choose either DVXA native or DXVA copyback engines. They can even accelerate high gamut colour HEVC 10 bit encoded footage if they have an Nvidia GTX 960 that supports it. Importantly however, they cant choose the madVR renderer. Only the native or copyback DVXA engines fully support modern codecs in high resolution accelerated via the GPU. So now, madVR is out for these use cases.
When your forced into using DVXA, out goes all the post processing via the GPU. You could try and run some filters via the CPU but thats going to be problematic for high bitrate complex codecs in high resolutions.This is where I think powerdvd 15 has unrecognised advantage.
With powerdvd you can both leverage the GPU for accelerated decoding of complex 8 bit HEVC high res material, but also enable smart theatre enhancements for post processing. Its kind of a madVR and DXVA native/copyback performance level all in one.
Right now I've got some blocker bugs in the current build of Powerdvd15, but on the assumption this is shortly resolved I am beginning to see how this platform has unique advantages beyond the BD menu support. Provided the bugs are fixed.
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Thats precisely the dilema Cyberlink are in. There is many different configuration sets, such as 4K / HD / SD run through different connections such as display port / HDMI / component with different GPUs Intel / NVIDIA / AMD etcetc
Youll see if go searching around about PowerDVD 15 such as on reddit, some people on reddit dismiss it with negative comments like "buggy and bloated" and other say "works ok for them".
I think my recommendaitons about Cyberlink changing their processes is the right path for them to both reduce their heavy tech support demands as well as having a larger portion of the customer base actually enjoying the software and recommending it to others
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Ok, heres a screenshot of the font scaling DPI issue in PowerDVD 15
http://s16.postimg.org/3l7uoq4v9/ridiculous.png
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Thanks, I'm sorry too as I want to be a fan of PowerDVD and contribute to it's success. If this software isn’t successful HTPC enthusiasts wont have real alternatives for full bluray playback including menus. The core competitive advantage of why PowerDVD is useful and why I have bought every version for many generations, is because of bluray playback. No other software does this properly. It could be argued that free software competitors such as MPC-HC with the LAV filters is a strong competitor that has other features which PowerDVD currently does not meet, such as full hardware decode support of high colour HEVC video (you only accelerate 8 bit colour not 10 bit on the GPU in PowerDVD15), but its certain that PowerDVD has no real competitor for proper bluray playback.
The simple fact is that are you not being very successful in delivering to your customerbase robust software in your production releases. This is also why you are suffering from a large quantity of support requests, which I do sympathise are time consuming and it can erode whatever profit you originally made on the software sale. I believe the root of this problem is because you are running a flawed software testing strategy and a flawed release cycle model. These things need to be re-examined and changes considered, such as:
- To better deal with the myriad of different configuration items that your software runs on, and to save internal costs in replicating those configurations as well as the significant man power investment it takes to execute extensive regression testing over lots of different configuration types, explore things like better customer Beta processes.
- You could consider things like an internal series of tests at Cyberlink (unit, systems integration, regression, useability etcetc) then progress into say a closed beta where you invite select customers who know what they are on about and wont waste time reporting things which arent bugs, then a more open public beta later on.
- In these betas, you could target specific configurations such as 4K, HD, SD, certain GPUs, CPUs etcetc.
- Put more effort into governing the betas. In the past youve just posted the beta build binary location and locked the thread. No explanation of how volunteers are actually going to participate in the beta and report bugs. I think you want to be building your community and really getting into having the betas as a serious community engagement. Let them test your software without you paying for it, either in your companies time or your company having to buy all those different hardware configurations internally.
- By properly building your community up, you'll then find the forum becomes a place where the users help each other and more experienced users resolve common user problems without hassling your official support channel and tieing up your costs there.
- Get more aligned with key ecosystem changes. It shouldnt be end users reporting 4K dramas with playback. It shouldnt be Windows 10 production users reporting Windows 10 problems. You need to be more focused on getting involved in say preview versions of major new operating systems from Microsoft, and when industry trends are taking place like the move to 4K, getting ontop of that in the development phases of your projects and not waiting until customers complain and tie up the support channel about 4K playback not working, Windows 10 stuff not working. Windows 10 was in preview for many many months before its prodfuction release.
After some weeks I still dont have working 3D bluray playback on Windows 10 and I'm continuing to work with your support on that. The latest is you guys cant replicate it. I dont mind if you want to send me a debug build and send that telemetry back to your development team so you can actually see it. I cant stress enough, the primary feature of why your product is bought against free alternatives, is because of bluray playback. If that isnt reliable, theres no real competitive advantage you can compete on to other alternatives. I could alternatively send a video showing what happens when 3d playback is attempted on Windows 10 on my config.
I will re-post a screenshot showing the subtitle DPI sclaing problem and how cyberlink user preferences in your UI are not respected in the playback.
Sincerely
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Ive also been trying to work with Arkush on my own 3d bluray playback not working on windows 10.
I think the suggestion he makes about Intel drivers probably isnt a cop out on behalf of cyberlink and has some merit. Theres been allot of problems with GPU drivers for windows 10, especially with the change to WDDM 2.0.
If your not running 4K resolutions HDMI 1.4 is fine to use for HD resolutions.
Adapters dont really work. Dont use adapters. Theres allot stuff going on with say HDCP with bluray 3d playback.
The differences appear to be that Im running an nvidia 960 gpu and running hdmi 2.0, but it still wont work with 3d bluray playback for me. Ive tried running HD just at 1920x1080 but that doesnt work either. Generally NVIDIA are far more regular than Intel with GPU drivers and fixes but I cant in all fairness say its for sure not a driver problem. Anyway I'd like to see Cyberlink prove its 100% a driver problem if that ends up being the root cause with these 3d playback problems.
I know its not my display cos my sons xbox one can do 3d playback no problem onto the display.
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