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Has anyone tried the new HEVC format ?
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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I am eager to find out how the new HEVC codec is working.

Thanks

Eugene

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9872 Offline
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Hi Eugene -

I can't say I've done any useful comparisons, but I can say it's working.

One thing I've found is that the common Windows based media players aren't ALL equipped to play the files correctly/completely or at all.



This post has been edited after being prompted by Nathan's suggestion below about LAV filters. After reading the changelog for MPC-HC, I uninstalled & re-installed K-LITE (even though I was using the 1.7.7 version of MPC-HC). My apologies for inadvertently posting inaccurate information.

Cheers - Tony
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Oct 06. 2014 15:27


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It seems that today's release of MPC-HC (1.7.7) supports it. I can't test it because my trial copy of PD13 won't encode in h265.

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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Oct 05. 2014 20:55

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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Thank you both, looks like things are falling into place.


Never heard of GOM and POT before. The Sony camcorder AX100 outputs XAVC S and so far all players I have including PD12 will handle it well.

Will download the new MPC-HC version right away.

Eugene

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9872 Offline
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Hi SoNic67 - It was the current version (1.7.7 64-bit) of MPC-HC that I used for testing purposes.

Eugene - I only came across those players in trying to track down ones that'd handle HEVC.

PotPlayer - http://potplayer.daum.net/
GOM Media Player - http://www.gomlab.com/eng/

Cheers - Tony
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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FYI - Any player using LAV Filters will decode HEVC just fine (if you PC is up to it). I use JRiver's Media Center.
Thanks
Nathan PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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I've tried it with PowerDVD 14 and works fine...as my expectation

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 06. 2014 05:46

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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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To the King


Good morning

Thanks for the reply.


What format, 4K ?, and how much space did it save? Is it as clean as 264 PQ wise?
I assume you used PD13 to generate the file?


Thanks

Eugene

PS I will wait a bit before going to PD13, too many bugs yet>

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Oct 06. 2014 10:16

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9872 Offline
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Thank you Nathan & SoNic67 - for prompting me to dig deeper.

I've edited my post above, which was previously inaccurate about MPC-HC.

Eugene - space saving? Yes & no. The same 10 second project to MPEG-4:

AVC H.264 1920x1080 @ 11MBps =13.3MB
HEVC H.265 1920x1080 @ 11MBps = 8.97MB

AVC H.264 3840x2160 @ ~20MBps = 23.7MB
HEVC H.265 3840x2160 @ ~20MBps = 24.2MB
- I'll test this with longer projects

My poor old eyes cannot detect any difference in PQ between the two.

Cheers - Tony
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 5095 Offline
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Quote: Thank you Nathan & SoNic67 - for prompting me to dig deeper.

I've edited my post above, which was previously inaccurate about MPC-HC.

Eugene - space saving? Yes & no. The same 10 second project to MPEG-4:

AVC H.264 1920x1080 @ 11MBps =13.3MB
HEVC H.265 1920x1080 @ 11MBps = 8.97MB

AVC H.264 3840x2160 @ ~20MBps = 23.7MB
HEVC H.265 3840x2160 @ ~20MBps = 24.2MB
- I'll test this with longer projects

My poor old eyes cannot detect any difference in PQ between the two.

Cheers - Tony

You might want to view this from a bitrate study. Drop the bitrate and see what the old eyes catch. Most tests comparing H.264 vs H.265 indicate the same picture quality (PSNR values, peak signal to noise ratio) is achieved at about 60% of the bitrate, 40% savings. That's the size savings benefit.

Since PQ for most PD user studies is based on eyes and display equipment vs a technical assessment, everyone’s perceived benefit may vary. For a couple of sports (action) scenes I tried, I thought a real noticeable difference occurred at about 50% of the bitrate.

Jeff

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 06. 2014 19:10

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Quote: To the King
What format, 4K ?, and how much space did it save? Is it as clean as 264 PQ wise?
I assume you used PD13 to generate the file?


MP4 with FullHD, I don't have 4K camcorder now
It saves about 30% space and I can't find the difference with my eyes.
And I use PD13 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PowerDirector 365
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Tony Jeff Nathan and the King, and Sonic

Thank you all for your inputs.

At the moment HEVC is not a necessary item here, it would be once HEVC optical players show up in stores. I remember reading that HEVC in PD13 will allow a space saving of "up to" 30%, does not seem a huge amount.

Installed the latest HEVC players, MPC-HC and GOM but could not find any HEVC material on the internet, will have to keep looking.

Do not have a 4K TV yet but have the VIZIO 70" P series in mind, waiting at the moment for a few reviews by people in the know. Will make a nice xmas present for my wife.

Cleaned out PD11 by just deleting it, no adverse effects noted on the remaining PD12. Did this after numerous backups and C drive cloning.

Again thanks and best regards

Eugene


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Oct 06. 2014 22:28

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9872 Offline
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Jeff - I like that... "You might want to..." gently pointing me where I should have been pointed in the first place.

So, HEVC H.265 is supposed to be able to be rendered at ~60% of the bitrate of AVC H.264 without loss of picture quality. I don't have the wherewithal to assess PQ with anything but subjective means (eyes).

Yes - with some fast motion (action sports and fast animations), the difference in clarity/sharpness is clear with HEVC rendered at ~50% of the bitrate of its AVC H.264 counterpart.

1 minute video (1920x1080):
AVC H.264 @ 16MBps = 116MB
HEVC H.265 @ 16MBps = 118MB
HEVC H.265 @ 10MBps = 73.4MB (~60%)
HEVC H.265 @ 8MBps = 58.1MB(50%) * in this render, the differences showed up in fast sections

1 minute 4K project:
AVC H.264 @ 24MBps = 171MB
HEVC H.265 @ 24MBps = 172MB
HEVC H.265 @ 15MBps = 109MB (~60%) *
HEVC H.265 @ 10MBps = 73MB (~40%) *
* Wasn't able to see much difference on the 1920x1080 monitor, but viewing on the 4K TV showed glaring differences. The test is flawed somewhat because the 4K clip wasn't straight of a camera... it had already been rendered, uploaded & downloaded. Still, on the basis of that, I wouldn't be dropping the VBR to save space.

So - that's consistent with Jeff's post above & other things I've (now) read about the advantages of HEVC H.265. About 40% saving in file size with comparable PQ. I can't apply that to 4K without properly testing.

They say you learn by your mistakes. I must have learned a lot in this thread!

Cheers - Tony

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 07. 2014 19:23


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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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To me the benefit will be now so much as reduction in size by allowing an increase in Quality (higher res, frame rates, sub-sampling) that should be possible on the same bitrate. PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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Quote:
1 minute video (1920x1080):
AVC H.264 @ 16MBps = 116MB
HEVC H.265 @ 16MBps = 118MB
HEVC H.265 @ 10MBps = 73.4MB (~60%)
HEVC H.265 @ 8MBps = 58.1MB(50%) * in this render, the differences showed up in fast sections

1 minute 4K project:
AVC H.264 @ 24MBps = 171MB
HEVC H.265 @ 24MBps = 172MB
HEVC H.265 @ 15MBps = 109MB (~60%) *
HEVC H.265 @ 10MBps = 73MB (~40%) *


Hi Tony,
you don't need to use the same bit rate in H.265
H.265 saves your disk space because it can use less bit rate to get the same quality as H.264

For example, 24Mbps in H.264 may need only 16Mbps in H.265 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PowerDirector 365
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1Nina
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Norway, 50km southwest of Oslo Joined: Oct 08, 2008 04:12 Messages: 1070 Offline
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Tried it today.
Without being scientific about it, a 224Mb h.264 file became
72Mb with the h.265 HEVEC (default mp4 1920 x 1080/11).

VLC player played it alright, with slightly decreased/washed colors,
But hey….I only have a laptop monitor to go with it……
YT uploaded, but did not process it.

I guess for now, this is something reserved for feinschmeckers owning
the gear to display and enjoy.
(I haven’t tried Vimeo, though.)

Nina
Just something.
https://www.petitpoisvideo.com
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Quote: I guess for now, this is something reserved for feinschmeckers owning
the gear to display and enjoy.

Google translates that word as "gourmet"

Vimeo accepts it:
http://vimeo.com/91403238

I don't like the results of lower bitrates.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Oct 08. 2014 12:32

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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Hello Tony,

how long did it take to generate those files?

I did buy and install PD13, and found it took about 4 times longer for the HEVC 265 files.

I mentioned that in an other threat

Gene 73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9872 Offline
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Hi Eugene -

You're right. Rendering does take a lot of time. In the previous tests I hadn't (a) taken note of the times or (b) switched from the default "Speed" mode to "Quality" mode (available in custom profile). I have now.

I assume your question relates to 4K video, so here's what I found:

Original Clip MPEG-4 XAVC 3840x2160 @60MBps 29.97fps Duration 25 seconds 182MB (originally shot on Sony AX100)
Rendered to HEVC MPEG-4 3840x2160 @36MBps 29.97fps
- Rendered in “Speed” & “Quality” modes on 2 PCs

Whoops - that should be i7-3930K


From that I learned that hardware makes a massive difference (duh) & switching to "Quality" mode does too (it's well worth the extra rendering time).

Cheers - Tony

P.S. Would PDR13 allow me to produce to HEVC MP4 3840x2160 @ 60MBps? No - it crashed every time
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8 Kbytes
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1980 time(s)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Oct 11. 2014 17:03


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Does it have HA active on any resolutions? In my experience, for h264, HA works only up to 1920x1080.
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