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PD11 60P out MAX bit rate too high, 35 to 40Mb , rather than 28Mb HELP
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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I have noticed that I have occasional glitches when playing a 1020x1080 60P file.

The original camera 60P output bitrate is as follows according to MEDIAINFO . Overall 25Mb , Max 28Mb. This is in accordance with the AVCHD2 spec.

After editing and producing a H264 AVC 1920x1080 60P 28Mb file the Overall bit rate is at 25Mb yet the MAX is 35.5 to 40Mb.
SVRT is used to produce the file.

The MAX bit rate is clearly much too high and explains my problems. Since I want to keep using SVRT, this being the main reason why I bought PD11, I am looking for a way to reduce the PD11 MAX bit rate only.

Apparently there is a way of setting custom bit rates but that deactivates the SVRT and I do not wish to render.

BTW the glitches are regardless of the player used.

Any help much appreciated

Eugene

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 30. 2013 22:07

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Quote: I have noticed that I have occasional glitches when playing a 1020x1080 60P file.
The original camera 60P output bitrate is as follows according to MEDIAINFO . Overall 25Mb , Max 28Mb. This is in accordance with the AVCHD2 spec.
After editing and producing a H264 AVC 1920x1080 60P 28Mb file the Overall bit rate is at 25Mb yet the MAX is 35.5 to 40Mb.
SVRT is used to produce the file.
The MAX bit rate is clearly much too high and explains my problems. Since I want to keep using SVRT, this being the main reason why I bought PD11, I am looking for a way to reduce the PD11 MAX bit rate only.
Apparently there is a way of setting custom bit rates but that deactivates the SVRT and I do not wish to render.
BTW the glitches are regardless of the player used.
Any help much appreciated
Eugene

Hi Eugen157,
If you can, please provide the full MediaInfo of the original video that you have.... actually I'm wrong. I think you should provide a smaple clip 5 seconds long, the original clip, unedited, please. That way I can get the MediaInfo I need. Use the clip to test the Profile I make, to see if it'll work before I post on the forum. Hope that makes sense. State the camera make and model please - I like to retain sample clips and know what they are
Dafydd
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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I'm away with work for a couple of days so this is from memory as I can not test. You can create a custom profile then manually edit the profile.ini to reduce the max bit rate but I'm 99% sure this is just for the encoder and with SVRT it would make no difference. Does the bit that causes issue relate to a join or part that would have been rendered?

Dafydd is right that we need a short sample but I would prefer a projet package where you can say the output glitches at timecode x PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Thank you both, hope the video will get there

Eugene
 Filename
00338.MTS
[Disk]
 Description
Pana HC-X900M at 1020x1080 60P
 Filesize
10332 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
172 time(s)
73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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I ran the clip through PD11 and here are the Video Info "General" readings:

Camera Overall BR 24.3 Max 28Mb

PD11 Overall BR 25.3 Max 40Mb

SVRT shows a green line. BTW I used 6 clips back to back in PD11.

Looks there is a light at the end of the tunnel as far as the glitches on pb either on a BR or file.They occur mostly
when there is a edit, especially if that change includes a transition.

However I do get the same 40Mb Max rate when using a single clip, no transitions etc.

Thank you both

Eugene

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at May 01. 2013 12:21

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9875 Offline
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Hi Eugen157 -

Even though Media Info is reporting Max BR as 40MBps for produced files, using the default AVC 60p (28MBps) profile, Bitrate Viewer shows it peaking at 26.667MBps

By modifying the Max BR in Profile.ini, I haven't yet been able to trick PD into producing anything with a Max BR of 28MBps (as your original clip).



Cheers - Tony
[Thumb - Eugen157 Clips BR.png]
 Filename
Eugen157 Clips BR.png
[Disk]
 Description
 Filesize
115 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
669 time(s)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 01. 2013 17:49


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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Thank you Tony for checking on this.

I will download bit rate viewer, looks like a nifty thing to have.
And will look for an other version of mediainfo to verify these numbers.
In regard to BRV, I wonder if the sample period lenght allows short spikes to be detected and measured.

The fact that these occasional glitches occur only during the first few seconds of an edit, or similar stream discontinuity, would support the thought that PD11 is the cause.

When adding these original camera clips in TsMuxer there is no problem with the bit rate and Mediainfo confirms this.

One thought would be to edit a longer clip in PD11, then remove, by other means the first and last 10 seconds. Then check the bit rate again since that part, with SVRT is supposed to be original camera video.

I am enclosing a longer clip

Thanks again
Eugene
 Filename
00367.MTS
[Disk]
 Description
pana HC-X900M original clip at 60P
 Filesize
40734 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
159 time(s)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 01. 2013 20:27

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Tony,
if your time allows, could you elaborate on the Profile.ini file?

How many are there, is each video standard represented by one?

As to the glitches, I have 3 software players, VLC will stop video playback after a glitch the sound goes on, Clasical player and MS player 12 will recover and go on. BR playback is best, very short glitch only, and fewer of them than with the SW players.
Thanks

Eugene

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 01. 2013 20:44

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9875 Offline
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There's just one Profile.ini which contains data for all customised profiles (AVC, MPEG-4 etc).
It's found in C:\Users\xxxx\AppData\Roaming\CyberLink\PowerDirector\11.0

I'll download your longer clip & try a few things. I don't profess to be technical enough to be able to analyse what's happening, but I'll let you know whatever I find.

Cheers - Tony
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Keep in mind that progs like Media Info only read the Meta Data from the files header, they do not actually calculate the "real" info in the file. This meta data is written by the app that created the file (in this case PD). I've seen the 40mbsec before but the streams never get close (as Tony has shown). The "glitches" you are seeing may be the transition point between SVRT and the Rendered segments and there used to be very noticeable problems with this in my testing but this issue was fixed in recent updates. To test can try a CPU encoding (eg no SVRT, or HW Accelleration)and see if the glitches are still present or not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 02. 2013 02:36

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Good Morning all.

One of the reasons I bought PD11 was the SVRT function and it looks like that is the culprit. sob sob

When using SVRT, the glitches occur in the same location at every produce of the same material.

Yesterday, instead of SVRT I used hardware encoding. It refused, telling me to update drivers.

But enabling "preview" made it tick and after 2 hrs the 60 min 1920x1080 60P 28Mb video was rendered w/o any glitches at all. Quality appears acceptable.

So the 40mb seems to be a red Herring as jmone suggested, especially since the rendered version indicates 40Mb as well.

I did download the BR monitor and it looks like a nifty thing to have. There were a few peaks at 32Mb but nothing as high as 40Mb.

So now what?
I could send this to technical support but will not bother since my last experience. Words like incompetent and visions of round circles come to my mind.

A big thanks to all 3 of you "down under" for your help.

Eugene

Still sobbing having lost SVRT. Still a great idea, hope it can be fixed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 02. 2013 12:58

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Hi Eugene,
This may be a "by design or a bug", either way, the issue should be explained. Report made to CyberLink. I'll play a little more with the clip and see what I come up with. A lovely little puzzle to work out.
Dafydd
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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FYI - I've had issues in the past with GPU encoding on 50/60p as you are at the mercy of the GPU drivers. My preference is to always just use CPU as the encoder (now the GOP B frame issue is fixed). I can have another look at transitions issues again this w'end to see if these have returned.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 03. 2013 00:46

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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As I understand it, SVRT will render for the duration of a transition, or for a few seconds for a splice, then use the original video. Could it be that there is no smooth continuance between those two segments?

As mentioned in my posts, this does not happen at every transition but often enough to make the resulting video annoying to watch.

An other question jmone, since from now on I will have to 100% render again, what would be your choice of rendering method for best PQ, assuming the use of 60P?.

Best regards

Eugene 73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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My Preference is to just use the Std 1920x1080 28mbps profile but without either SVRT or GPU enabled (eg just uses the CPU). It will take longer but the results look good and you usually are not in that much of a rush anyway.

FYI - I did a quick retest of the SVRT using my test patterns and I did not see any issues. That said, keep in mind SVRT is more complicated as it has to stitch together (I presume at a GOP boundary) the original bits with the bits that are rendered and make sure the timecodes for the video and audio stream flow correctly. If any part is off you will see or hear the issue. There may also be issues with the change in the encoding done in the stream VS that done by PD and that some players may not be able to adapt quickly enough to not show a glitch. All this is just speculation. If you package up a project with the transitions that cause the glitch (and say where it is) it would be easier to confirm.

EDIT - Link to the test project I use. http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/25402.page#138203

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at May 03. 2013 02:23

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Good morning jmon,

well, bad news. Deleting the timeline clips before and after a 1 minute segment that has two transitions and glitches, produced using SVRT, showed no defects. I did not disturb any thing starting and ending app 20 sec before and during that segment.

There is no question that some players react differently to the glitches, regardless if played as a file or from a disc. Some will stop the video and the sound goes on others will recover.

Mediainfo and BRV showed different results, I question the capability of BRV detecting a burst of higher bit rate for a short duration of a few frames or even less. BRV's shortest read out (averaged ?) seems to be a one second interval, that is 60 frames. But a glitch lasting a frame would be enough to screw things up.

I did use BRV to look at some of the glitches, the readings were higher than the average video but no more than about 5Mb. and that could be expected in the region of a transition.

I will tinker with this a bit more. But I am happy to know that it is possible to produce good video at 60P without SVRT and as you pointed out ,time is not an issue.

And there is still the question why the bit rate jumps to 40Mb as indicated by mediainfo after going through PD.

Thanks for your interest Jmone.

Eugene

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at May 03. 2013 13:32

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
Reply
Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Jmone,

I burned an other BP DVD using SVRT and sure enough the glitches are back. ( I had thrown out all SVRT burns.)
If you send me a PM with your address I would be happy to mail it to you. As well as one with render, no glitches.

Eugene

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 03. 2013 15:15

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
Reply
jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Mmmm - PM me the link if you like and I'll have a look PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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