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Issue: PD10 does not seem to be Frame Accurate (dropping and repeting frames instead)..or is it me?
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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There seems to be an issue with rendering in PD10 not being frame accurate. I've attached a PD10 project of a PAL Test Pattern made from 25 unique image of a rotating timer for each of the corresponding 25frames and a Beep at the top of the clock (which is then repeated 20 times to get a 20sec clip). The issue is that when PD10 renders it (I've tried both PAL and AVC in 1920x1080/25p) the output has some frames missing and others repeated instead of the correct unique frames. I have attached:
1) The project files and the following output from PD10
2) 25fpsWithBeep.mpg
3) 25fpsWithBeep.m2ts

Can I ask some others to test as I'm hoping i've just stuffed something up....as this would be a very fundemental flaw to PD10 otherwise.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=391CT6E7 PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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For example, have a look at the 25fpsWithBeep.mpg file and go to frames 00:00:00:14, 15 and 16 and compare them with the project.

Project Vs --> MPEG File
Frame 14 --> Frame 14
Frame 15 --> Frame 16 (eg what happended to Frame 15?)
Frame 16 --> Frame 16 PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 5233 Offline
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Produce the m2ts file at a real 25fps, not 23.976fps as currently done and I think your frame issue will go away with the m2ts file.

Jeff
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Thanks Jeff, 2 for 2 today! I'd grabbed the wrong profile for the AVC Output and it looks fine when using a 25p output. I've been looking at the MPG file and interestingly it seems to just have the issues I descrived when veiwing it frame by frame within PD10 yet the output looks OK in other apps. Did you see any issues with the MPG file? PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 5233 Offline
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Yes that's true, nothing new though, mpg files have not played back correctly inside PD since version 9. To the casual eye they look okay but the player actually skips frames, duplicates frames and so on. I mapped skipped frames out in a fairly long clip one time and it is totally repeatable pattern. A somewhat strange pattern but it was repeatable. Actually, I don't find much of the current PD playback being frame accurate. Audio wave form can be flatline at the end of a clip but there is sound there. I've seen this being off 7 or 8 frames.

All times I've checked, no actual skipped frames in the produced file when viewed with other players/editors on the same file that PD9/10 created but skips. I also found that the PD8 player does not skip frames in a mpg file that 9 and 10 skip.

I know, not much help.

Jeff
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Actually Jeff, it is a great help (and relief). Thanks for taking the time to test and explain….it is much appreciated.

As a Video Editing application, you would expect PD to be frame accurate in both its work area and final output. Thankfully the MPG output looks fine in "other" applications just not in the one that created it!


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Nov 20. 2011 00:27

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 5233 Offline
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Attached is a pic of the 25fpsWithBeep.mpg put back in the timeline of your project. As you can see, timeline accurate is not that accurate. Waveform of the same beep not repeatable and also a several frame difference between timeline intent and produced mpg file.

Bottom line, one can pseudo gage the appropriate position in a timeline to add events but it is nothing near accurate.

Jeff
[Thumb - timeline accurate.png]
 Filename
timeline accurate.png
[Disk]
 Description
errors in accurate timeline
 Filesize
220 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
320 time(s)
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Thanks for the confirmation Jeff. Very odd IMO, its not like MPG is some new format that PD would be struggling to implement correctly. Do you know if it only MPG or are other formats (containers / codec) also impacted?

Nathan PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Also - how did you generate the Audio Wave Form on the second clip?
Thanks
Nathan PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 5233 Offline
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The display frame skipping with next frame for me appears more isolated to mpg. The accurate timeline display appears to affect many more formats, mpg, mts, m2ts, generated with PD or not, both PAL and NTSC, on and on. Amount off tends to be varied and must be dependant on "something", most I've seen is about 15 frames off. Here is an example of raw mts from Canon with the wave form being off in the timeline, http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/19736.page#103898

Waveform display, in the Preference > General tab, "Show waveform in Timeline". Be patient, for me PD10 has gone backward to an earlier issue many experienced were the service (PDHanumanSvr.exe) to generate the waveform can take awhile to complete depending on source footage.

Jeff
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Thanks it was on and I can now see it (instead of a flat line). Also as you suggest, the timeline display it is off as well for M2TS and by the same amount on both my MPG and M2TS rendering of the project (seems to drift forward by around 3 frames over the 20 sec project = 10 frames per minute!). PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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Xerox [Avatar]
Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Aug 09, 2009 01:36 Messages: 446 Offline
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There's one thing that seems to remedy the "dropping and repeating frames" problem when stepping through the frames in the playback monitor with MPEG-2 files produced by PowerDirector, and that is produce the mpeg-2 file with a custom profile where you have changed the GOP sequence to IBBPBBPBBPBB for PAL video and to IBBPBBPBBPBBPBB for NTSC video.

You can't change the GOP sequence from within PowerDirector, but you need to create a custom profile in PowerDirector and make note of the name of the profile, such as "Custom Profile -1." Exit from PowerDirector.

Next use Explorer to navigate to the file "Profile.ini" in the hidden App folder. I'm still on XP so the Profile.ini file is in C:\documents and settings\[owner name]\application data\cyberlink\powerdirector\10.0.

Open up the Profile.ini file with notepad, then search for the custom profile name. Once you've found it, look for the next <Pattern> tag and you'll see the default GOP sequence. Change the sequence to one of the sequences I gave earlier depending on your video format. Save the file.

Now produce your MPEG-2 file using the custom profile. After you've produced it, put it on the timeline and step through the frames to verify that none skip or repeat.

When I saw that the GOP sequences didn't start with an "I" frame, I suspected that might be the problem.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 21. 2011 02:21

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BarryTheCrab
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: USA Joined: Nov 06, 2008 22:18 Messages: 6133 Offline
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If you can "fix" the issue with a simple hack, why would that not be the normal programmed function?
How exactly does the misfiring frame count effect my editing and the final output? Should I do the hack? Must it be done again with every re-install/patch? HP Envy Phoenix/4thGen i7-4770(4@3.4GHz~turbo>3.9)/Nvidia GTX 960(4GB)/16GB DDR3/7,200rpm/w10x64---
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JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 5233 Offline
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Quote: There's one thing that seems to remedy the "dropping and repeating frames" problem when stepping through the frames in the playback monitor with MPEG-2 files produced by PowerDirector, and that is produce the mpeg-2 file with a custom profile where you have changed the GOP sequence to IBBPBBPBBPBB for PAL video and to IBBPBBPBBPBBPBB for NTSC video.

Maybe, a GOP can begin with a B-frame, but it cannot end with one. I'd say more typical is the IBBP which you allude to. Ironically, PD8 does not skip any frames when playing the PD9/10 produced mpg file and PD8 also produces a GOP sequence of BBIB... just like PD9 and 10.

Jeff
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Xerox [Avatar]
Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Aug 09, 2009 01:36 Messages: 446 Offline
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What I'm really suspecting is that the MPEG-2 decoder that Cyberlink is using, for playback in the preview monitor in PDR10, is having trouble with files that have the default GOP pattern as shown in the production profiles. There's nothing wrong with that pattern, it's just that it's not making it through the decoder the way it did in PDR9. Cyberlink really needs to fix the decoder.

I believe that the custom profiles will still be there after reinstalling PDR, but I'm not going to uninstall my version now to find out. It's not necessary to make this hack unless the problem interferes with your surgical editing. Gateway DX4380, AMD A8-5500 Quad Core 3.2GHz with ATI Radeon HD 7560D; 16GB RAM; 1 TB SATA 7200 RPM; Windows 8 Pro 64-bit; PDR11, PDVD12.
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 706 Offline
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Thanks Xerox, I suspect you are correct and the Cyberlink UI struggles to display content accurately in both the preview monitor and timeline. The issue is working out "what" content and if there is anyway of universally "fixing" it. Even if the GOP Structure you suggest plays nice with PD10, most content will be created outside PD10 and who knows what GOP structure they will have. Also as pointed out by Jeff, I too see the issue where the sound seems to drift forward on the timeline to actuals and this is on AVC as well as MPG so who knows if all others are also impacted.

All of this leaves me feeling that you should not rely on Frame Accurate editing in PD10. Of course CyberLink may say it is close enough for a Consumer product though I'm sure many will not agree!
PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Sony FX6 - 500Mbps 4k/50p AVC-I HLG
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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