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Stutter with 4:2:0 MXF-files
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5757 Offline
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Quote Good idea to try this. I have uploaded the content of the entire SD card in the folder SD.

Ok, some progress on my end but some issues still remain.

On the positive side, the XF app was finally able to see the 3 clips when I copied the CONTENTS folder onto a USB drive. The bad news is that they're all displayed as black/empty video, even though I have the Canon XF-AVC and XF-HEVC Decoders installed - so I still have more work to do.

The other issue is that all 3 clips on the SD card (the ones that I can't play) are 25p AVC 4:2:0, not the 50p HEVC 4:2:2 clips I was expecting. Can you clear the SD card, change the settings and record at least one clip then upload the contents again? Make sure the lens cap is open, just in case

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Oct 17. 2020 14:37

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This has to do with the system frequency set in the camcorder in order to avoid flickering due to artificial light.

Because you still have there incandescent bulbs???

Any new fluorescent or LED light works with a PWM source in the kHz range.

No, it's just to create an artificial market barrier, so they can tax the video products more than anywhere else.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 17. 2020 15:42

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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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Quote

On the positive side, the XF app was finally able to see the 3 clips when I copied the CONTENTS folder onto a USB drive. The bad news is that they're all displayed as black/empty video, even though I have the Canon XF-AVC and XF-HEVC Decoders installed - so I still have more work to do.

The other issue is that all 3 clips on the SD card (the ones that I can't play) are 25p AVC 4:2:0, not the 50p HEVC 4:2:2 clips I was expecting. Can you clear the SD card, change the settings and record at least one clip then upload the contents again? Make sure the lens cap is open, just in case

Sorry for the confusion, but to prevent images of my hardware and desk etc. on the internet I choose to keep the lens cap closed. I thought you would not need the video. Using headphones, the panning from right to left in front of the audio source can be heard clearly, so no video needed. If you do not hear a difference: that is my problem ☹ it is mono. Playback in Canon XF Utility clearly reveals stereo sound because it can switch on and off each of the four channels and attribute them to left or right. I already asked Canon to have the option of exporting the resulting video/audio combination.

The clip in de HEVC_001 folder is 50 fps according to MediaInfo:
Video
ID : 2
Format : 0E15000402100001-0E15000500013000
Format settings, wrapping mode : Frame
Codec ID : 0E15000402100001-0E15000500013000
Duration : 11 s 520 ms
Bit rate : 152 Mb/s
Width : 3 840 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 50.000 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
Bit depth : 10 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.367
Stream size : 209 MiB (97%)
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

The other two files are for those who want to join in using 4:2:0 H264 files.
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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I have tried to look for the manual of Audiodirector, but the ? and ‘user's guide’ at the top right only brings me to the download of the software itself.

The manual for Audiodirector 11 is probably not finished yet. I found version 10!
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5757 Offline
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Quote Sorry for the confusion, but to prevent images of my hardware and desk etc. on the internet I choose to keep the lens cap closed. I thought you would not need the video.

To be certain that a 4:2:2 clip is converted correctly for editing in PD I absolutely need video content. Record the view from your window, water in the sink, your lawn, anything with content that can be assessed for quality issues after converting.

I now see that there are 2 clips in the HEVC folder, but for some reason the XF Utility is only showing me the 3 AVC clips:



Looks like there's still more work to do on my end...
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
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FYI - I've updated a simple FFMPEG based utility that will (lossless) re-mux MXF to MKV so audio will work with PD19 (for AVC). More Info at https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/83622.page Works well for me on my Canon XF400 MXF clips (AVC based). This will not help with UHD HEVC 4:2:2 MXF support in PD19. If you need that you will have to look at other NLE (like Resolve). This "fix" however will make your 4 x Mono Audio tracks in a UHD AVC 4:2:0 MXF clip useable by remuxing them to MKV.
Thanks
Nathan

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 17. 2020 18:54

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5757 Offline
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Wow, thanks very much for sharing this!

Another issue is that AudioDirector can't be invoked from PD's timeline because it doesn't recognize the audio configuration of the native MXF format, but after spending 2 seconds converting the clip to MKV with your batch file, AD can be used normally.

Nice work! :👍
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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Quote

To be certain that a 4:2:2 clip is converted correctly for editing in PD I absolutely need video content. Record the view from your window, water in the sink, your lawn, anything with content that can be assessed for quality issues after converting.

I now see that there are 2 clips in the HEVC folder, but for some reason the XF Utility is only showing me the 3 AVC clips:



Looks like there's still more work to do on my end...

I have added a new clip to OneDrive as requested. It is in the HEVC folder. Clip date 18-10-2020.

The XF Utility shows all clips in one ‘mediaroom’ per memory card, so mixed XAVC and HEVC.
Another cause of apparently different MediaInfo might be that there is a setting which generates new clip names with sequent numbers. The clip name can no longer be compared to the original ones.

Last night I found out that importing the clips in Davinci Resolve and using the panning tool in the fairlight tab did the trick. I can export this to PD. It was too late to late you know immediately 😊.

I am going to read the new posts now, as there seem to be other solutions as well.

I hope that I can use my (renewed yesterday) subscription to Cyberlink with Canon MXF XAVC and HEVC files natively soon without stutter!
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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Quote FYI - I've updated a simple FFMPEG based utility that will (lossless) re-mux MXF to MKV so audio will work with PD19 (for AVC). More Info at https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/83622.page Works well for me on my Canon XF400 MXF clips (AVC based). This will not help with UHD HEVC 4:2:2 MXF support in PD19. If you need that you will have to look at other NLE (like Resolve). This "fix" however will make your 4 x Mono Audio tracks in a UHD AVC 4:2:0 MXF clip useable by remuxing them to MKV.
Thanks
Nathan

As Optodata said: Wow! Quite impressive, as it works very well, amazingly fast and works in PD19!

In your other post where you uploaded the software you were quite modest saying it is easy to adapt the .BAT files. For you as a professional that might be true, but not for me.
Would you be so kind to upload a .BAT file that generates 2 times stereo from channels 1+2 and 3+4?
My internal mic is a back-up in case I forgot to switch on the power of my external mic (bit of a flaw in this mic that it does not turn itself on when recording).
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
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No Probs: Here is a few more batch files to play with:
- MXF from 4 Mono to 2 Stereo MKV: Will create 2 x Stereo tracks form Ch1/2 and Ch3/4 with AVC in MKV that shoud work in PD
- MXF HEVC to Pro Res Stereo and 2 Mono WAV Files: This will transcode (and take some time) the HEVC to ProRes with a Stereo Track in MOV + 2 x Mono.WAV files for the other audio tracks. These should all import into PD and work fine but be warned the MOV file will be 10x the size of the MKV but will keep your full 4:2:2 Video Steam in a PD compatible format.
- MXF HEVC to Pro Res Stereo and 1 Stereo MKA File: This will transcode (and take some time) the HEVC to ProRes with a Stereo Track in MOV + 1 x Stereo.MKA file for the other audio tracks. These should all import into PD and work fine but be warned the MOV file will be 10x the size of the MKV but will keep your full 4:2:2 Video Steam in a PD compatible format.
Thanks
Nathan

PS - let me know what combo you need and I'm happy to knock up a custom script.
 Filename
MultiMono Fix.zip
[Disk]
 Description
 Filesize
1 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
18 time(s)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Oct 18. 2020 06:39

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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Quote No Probs: Here is a few more batch files to play with:

PS - let me know what combo you need and I'm happy to knock up a custom script.

The world would be a better place if people help each other like in this forum. And it is Corona proof! I rather wear a headphone than a mouth cap.sealed Thanks for all your efforts. Noud
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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Quote No Probs: Here is a few more batch files to play with:
- MXF from 4 Mono to 2 Stereo MKV: Will create 2 x Stereo tracks form Ch1/2 and Ch3/4 with AVC in MKV that shoud work in PD
- MXF HEVC to Pro Res Stereo and 2 Mono WAV Files: This will transcode (and take some time) the HEVC to ProRes with a Stereo Track in MOV + 2 x Mono.WAV files for the other audio tracks. These should all import into PD and work fine but be warned the MOV file will be 10x the size of the MKV but will keep your full 4:2:2 Video Steam in a PD compatible format.
- MXF HEVC to Pro Res Stereo and 1 Stereo MKA File: This will transcode (and take some time) the HEVC to ProRes with a Stereo Track in MOV + 1 x Stereo.MKA file for the other audio tracks. These should all import into PD and work fine but be warned the MOV file will be 10x the size of the MKV but will keep your full 4:2:2 Video Steam in a PD compatible format.
Thanks
Nathan

PS - let me know what combo you need and I'm happy to knock up a custom script.

The 2x2 stereo conversion suits my needs 100% and it works perfectly!
I will experiment with the 4:2:2. This will enable me to use 50 fps which diminishes the stutter in exports (only visible with fast panning or rapid moving objects).
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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I thought I reproduced all the steps you mention correctly by panning channel 1 in Audiodirector to the left and channel 2 to the right. The result however is mono, whichever track I mute or play both. I have attached a screen dump from Audiodirector and the produced audio. Please advise what to do.

18-10-2020: Thanks for your efforts! Jmone has solved my problem today. Now I get 2x2 stereo, which can be edited in PD19.
Your post however revealed that I want to study and experiment more with Audiodirector!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 18. 2020 08:55

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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
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I'd suggest with such a great camcorder you should look at shooting in 50fps all the time (I do on the XF400), as it not only gvies you smoother pans but you can then do 2x slo mo in post and still get 25fps. I presume the XF705 has a UHD 50P AVC profile and the util will remux the 50p AVC to MKV as well.

Also let me know if you want the order of the 2 Stereo streams swapped. At present the 1st is from Ch3/4, and the 2nd is from Ch1/2 but if you normally use Ch1/2 then it may be easier to have that as the default. PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5757 Offline
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Quote I have added a new clip to OneDrive as requested. It is in the HEVC folder. Clip date 18-10-2020. ...

Last night I found out that importing the clips in Davinci Resolve and using the panning tool in the fairlight tab did the trick. I can export this to PD. It was too late to late you know immediately 😊.

Thanks for adding the HEVC clip. I was able to see and preview it in the XF Utility, but I hadn't had much luck in getting my usual conversion tools to work.

I'm really glad you were able to get the audio working in Resolve, and even better to have the specialized tools from jmone which seem to have gotten everything straightened out, so I'm going to assume that we don't need to worry about any more MXF conversions.
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
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".....1-2-1-2-1-2 etc."

This is a Pull Down pattern and used to covert video from one FPS to another. You want to avoid this where possible.

Make sure that you set your time line for your project in PD to the same FPS as the majority of the media you import. So if your media is 50FPS, make sure your timeline is also 50fps and that you produce at either 50fps or 25fps (which is clean pull down of dropping half the frames). For Slo Mo you would use 2x on the time line (clean pull down that just doubles each frame). The situation to try to avoid is mixing 23.976 / 50 / 59.97 etc fps media in one timeline. This can be hard to do if you also have footage from another source (say a phone) where the FPS is not (or can not) be set to the same frame rate. PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
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...., so I'm going to assume that we don't need to worry about any more MXF conversions.


I don't think that PD really support MXF well due to the issues about the exposing and subsequent mgt of the multiple Audio Tracks. The following is how Resolve does it. In the Clip Properties, you can select how to treat each of the Audio Tracks, make some Stereo, 5.1 etc etc from the mono tracks.



It is something that CyberLink needs to look at if it really wants to claim it can support MXF files (or that matter even other formats that do the same thing, eg on my XF400 I can also use MP4 to store the same 4 x Mono Tracks as the wrapper). The workaround about mixing the tracks in my utility, remuxing to MKV and then using "languages" in PD is a kludge. It is even more akward if you keep the 4 x mono tracks in the MKV remux then trying to manually deal with each track in PD to create say a Stereo or Surround mix.

Thanks
Nathan
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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Quote I'd suggest with such a great camcorder you should look at shooting in 50fps all the time (I do on the XF400), as it not only gvies you smoother pans but you can then do 2x slo mo in post and still get 25fps. I presume the XF705 has a UHD 50P AVC profile and the util will remux the 50p AVC to MKV as well.

Also let me know if you want the order of the 2 Stereo streams swapped. At present the 1st is from Ch3/4, and the 2nd is from Ch1/2 but if you normally use Ch1/2 then it may be easier to have that as the default.


So many people advised me to use 50 fps that I will continue to do so (after some tests I even made the first shots of my second grandchild in 50 fps!).

I can (as you probably know as a XF405 user) select which audio inputs I want on which channel.
I have put my external mic on 1+2 and the internal mic on 3+4.
Swapping the two video streams would be nice, because it is more intuitive.
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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I'm really glad you were able to get the audio working in Resolve, and even better to have the specialized tools from jmone which seem to have gotten everything straightened out, so I'm going to assume that we don't need to worry about any more MXF conversions.

The audio conversion problem has indeed been solved. I hope Cyberlink will incorporate native MXF-support containing more audio channels in PD19 soon.

Thank you very much for your continued support!
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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Quote ".....1-2-1-2-1-2 etc."

This is a Pull Down pattern and used to covert video from one FPS to another. You want to avoid this where possible.

Make sure that you set your time line for your project in PD to the same FPS as the majority of the media you import. So if your media is 50FPS, make sure your timeline is also 50fps and that you produce at either 50fps or 25fps (which is clean pull down of dropping half the frames). For Slo Mo you would use 2x on the time line (clean pull down that just doubles each frame). The situation to try to avoid is mixing 23.976 / 50 / 59.97 etc fps media in one timeline. This can be hard to do if you also have footage from another source (say a phone) where the FPS is not (or can not) be set to the same frame rate.

Both the clip (according to MediaInfo) and the timeline (according to Preferences) are 25 fps.
I have uploaded the .PDS-file in the folder Stutter in timeline PD19, so you might check it out for yourself. I sent this .PDS file to Cyberlink Customer Support and they acknowledged the problem and escalated it to their engineering team.

It is also my experience not to use footage from my smartphone (30 fps) or my drone (30 fps after a new firmware update ☹) in a 25-fps timeline. Are there any tools (like ffmpeg perhaps) that to a better job than just leaving out frames?
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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I don't think that PD really support MXF well due to the issues about the exposing and subsequent mgt of the multiple Audio Tracks.

It is something that CyberLink needs to look at if it really wants to claim it can support MXF files (or that matter even other formats that do the same thing, eg on my XF400 I can also use MP4 to store the same 4 x Mono Tracks as the wrapper). The workaround about mixing the tracks in my utility, remuxing to MKV and then using "languages" in PD is a kludge. It is even more akward if you keep the 4 x mono tracks in the MKV remux then trying to manually deal with each track in PD to create say a Stereo or Surround mix.

Thanks
Nathan

I totally agree. Does Cyberlink have a kind of voting by users on all suggestions?
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