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Stutter with 4:2:0 MXF-files
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NoudvR [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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Quote


I don't think that PD really support MXF well due to the issues about the exposing and subsequent mgt of the multiple Audio Tracks.

It is something that CyberLink needs to look at if it really wants to claim it can support MXF files (or that matter even other formats that do the same thing, eg on my XF400 I can also use MP4 to store the same 4 x Mono Tracks as the wrapper). The workaround about mixing the tracks in my utility, remuxing to MKV and then using "languages" in PD is a kludge. It is even more akward if you keep the 4 x mono tracks in the MKV remux then trying to manually deal with each track in PD to create say a Stereo or Surround mix.

Thanks
Nathan

I totally agree. Does Cyberlink have a kind of voting by users on all suggestions?
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5961 Offline
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Quote I totally agree. Does Cyberlink have a kind of voting by users on all suggestions?

At various points in the past, the forum moderator has encouraged users to participate in "feature request" discussions, but my understanding is that now the preferred way to reach the appropriate people at CL is the Rate Us & Provide Suggestions path.

I'm glad you've gotten a positive response on the issue from tech support, and I think it would also help to use the feedback channel to express how you'd like to work with all of the MXF formats available from your camera.
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jmone
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
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Hi NoudvR

Here is some more info to consider:

  • PD Time Line: Looks like your timeline is in 25fps. Got to the Gear Icon --> General --> Timeline Frame Rate --> Change to 50 FPS (PAL)

  • MXF from 4 Mono to 2 Stereo Alt MKV: I've attached a modified script that now puts Mono Track 3&4 to Stereo Track 1, and 1&2 to Stereo Track 2



On the matching Frame Rate options, there is really only 3 ways this is done:

  • Get all devices (Display device, Cameras etc) on the one FPS or clean multiple (eg 25/50/100 etc)

  • Speed Up/Down: Works well of the FPS of the two clips are a close multiple/fraction. Eg, If you have 24 fps material, you could do "PAL Speed Up". Speed up your 24fps on the timeline by 4%. This will make the 24fps play a bit faster but will stop the need to do an uneaven pull down (frame drops or repeats). If on a 50fps timeline, your speed up 24fps material to 25fps, PD will then also just repeat each frame twice. Works very well and is used commerically to move "Movie" to "PAL". If you also want to keep the Audio on the 24fps material, you may need to do a Pitch Correction by 0.7067 of a semitone.

  • Other Pull Down Patterns: By Repeating/Dropping frames you can match two very different FPS Clips on the timeline (PD Does this Automatically). Downside is you get a repeating judder that (too me) look terrible. Eg putting 30fps material on a 50fps timeline

  • Interpolation: I don't know if PD has this option, but you can interpolate from one FPS to another, but the results (to me) look weired, kind of like going in and out of focus, as the sofware tried to make "new" frames at the new FPS by blending some frames from the original. FFMPEG can do this but I don't like the look (and it takes time as you have to render the clips) so I don't bother



The Real Answer is: Getting all devices on the same FPS:

  • Smartphones: The built in "Video" apps normally have very little control. On Andriod (no idea about iOS), you can get 3rd party apps that lets you set the FPS (as well as a bunch of other more "advanced" options) for shooting. On my LGV50, I've can use both FILMIC Pro / Cinema 4K that lets me select UHD/25p that works well in PD (the Filmic Pro seems a bit off 25fps but seems OK).

  • Drone: It too can probably shoot in 25 or 50p but you will need to check witht the MFR

  • Canon XF705: You "may" be able to switch your XF705 to be able to select NTSC Frame Rates (eg 59.94/60fps) but Canon have "crippled" the firmware (at least in my XF400) so you can NOT see the option to select NTSC Frame Rates (and vice versa for thouse sould in the USA). Certaily on my XF400, I can pay for a SW update to expose these other settings in the menu but...... then I'd have to switch my TV etc to NTSC frame rates to enjoy judder free playback. Just not worth it.



Thanks
Nathan
 Filename
MXF from 4 Mono to 2 Stereo Alt MKV.zip
[Disk]
 Description
 Filesize
325 bytes
 Downloaded:
771 time(s)

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Oct 20. 2020 03:34

PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
GoPro Hero6 Black
Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
Reply
optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5961 Offline
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Quote Hi Optodata

Here is some more info to consider:

  • PD Time Line: Looks like your timeline is in 25fps. Got to the Gear Icon --> General --> Timeline Frame Rate --> Change to 50 FPS (PAL)

  • I'm not sure what project you're referring to as I haven't created or shared any projects for this thread, I assume your comments are actually meant for OP, right?
    Reply
    jmone
    Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
    [Post New]
    Quote

    I'm not sure what project you're referring to as I haven't created or shared any projects for this thread, I assume your comments are actually meant for OP, right?


    Sorry Mate - yes it was for NoudvR (updated my post).

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 20. 2020 03:35

    Reply
    NoudvR [Avatar]
    Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
    [Post New]
    Quote Hi NoudvR

    Here is some more info to consider:

    • PD Time Line: Looks like your timeline is in 25fps. Got to the Gear Icon --> General --> Timeline Frame Rate --> Change to 50 FPS (PAL)

    • MXF from 4 Mono to 2 Stereo Alt MKV: I've attached a modified script that now puts Mono Track 3&4 to Stereo Track 1, and 1&2 to Stereo Track 2



    On the matching Frame Rate options, there is really only 3 ways this is done:

    • Get all devices (Display device, Cameras etc) on the one FPS or clean multiple (eg 25/50/100 etc)

    • Speed Up/Down: Works well of the FPS of the two clips are a close multiple/fraction. Eg, If you have 24 fps material, you could do "PAL Speed Up". Speed up your 24fps on the timeline by 4%. This will make the 24fps play a bit faster but will stop the need to do an uneaven pull down (frame drops or repeats). If on a 50fps timeline, your speed up 24fps material to 25fps, PD will then also just repeat each frame twice. Works very well and is used commerically to move "Movie" to "PAL". If you also want to keep the Audio on the 24fps material, you may need to do a Pitch Correction by 0.7067 of a semitone.

    • Other Pull Down Patterns: By Repeating/Dropping frames you can match two very different FPS Clips on the timeline (PD Does this Automatically). Downside is you get a repeating judder that (too me) look terrible. Eg putting 30fps material on a 50fps timeline

    • Interpolation: I don't know if PD has this option, but you can interpolate from one FPS to another, but the results (to me) look weired, kind of like going in and out of focus, as the sofware tried to make "new" frames at the new FPS by blending some frames from the original. FFMPEG can do this but I don't like the look (and it takes time as you have to render the clips) so I don't bother



    The Real Answer is: Getting all devices on the same FPS:

    • Smartphones: The built in "Video" apps normally have very little control. On Andriod (no idea about iOS), you can get 3rd party apps that lets you set the FPS (as well as a bunch of other more "advanced" options) for shooting. On my LGV50, I've can use both FILMIC Pro / Cinema 4K that lets me select UHD/25p that works well in PD (the Filmic Pro seems a bit off 25fps but seems OK).

    • Drone: It too can probably shoot in 25 or 50p but you will need to check witht the MFR

    • Canon XF705: You "may" be able to switch your XF705 to be able to select NTSC Frame Rates (eg 59.94/60fps) but Canon have "crippled" the firmware (at least in my XF400) so you can NOT see the option to select NTSC Frame Rates (and vice versa for thouse sould in the USA). Certaily on my XF400, I can pay for a SW update to expose these other settings in the menu but...... then I'd have to switch my TV etc to NTSC frame rates to enjoy judder free playback. Just not worth it.



    Thanks
    Nathan

    To avoid confusion: the clip in the project was 25 fps as was the timeline, so in perfect sync I would assume.

    Thanks for the change of channels!

    I had not thought of using the speed option to correct for frame rate, so I am going to give that a try.
    Excellent that you gave me the pitch correction in a number also.

    I have an iPhone and will look for other camera apps that allow for 25/50 fps. My DJI drone is no problem because the settings contain all frame rates. I have learned to check these after every firmware update, because they can be reset to the default values afterwards.

    In my XF705 I can change the system frequency which enables me to select ‘NTSC’ framerates. I still have not figured out whether there any real problems using this e.g. with my TV. Filmmakers and Canon advise against it in Europe. Why, I do not know.
    Reply
    jmone
    Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
    [Post New]
    Looks like you are spoilt for choice on your XF705!

    • As you are in EU Stick with 25/50fps : If you ever need to do a project for someone in a NTSC country you can always change everything to 29.97/59.94 .. but just set, forget (and check) you are on 25/50fps

    • Looks like Filmic Pro (and a bunch of others) is available for the iPhone that lets you change your FPS which is good news



    Some other things to try (if you are bored): Having a better play trying to import various formats into PD, the biggest limitation in PD is the formats it will accept in 4:2:2 sub-sampling is only ProRes and V210. PD seems rather happy to accept 8 or 10-Bit content. Many will argue 10-Bit is more important than 4:2:2 for consumer production (as there is no 4:2:2 consumer content anyway) as you get 1024 levels for 10-Bit over 256 in 8-Bit. Perfect for HDR. The next limitation is that unfortunately PD does not seem to support producing in (HDR) 10-Bit for any format that I can find (but I'm sure it will come at some point). Even so, 10-Bit could still be of interest to you if you want to do any grading of your footage.

    So at present I'd suggest

    1. If you want a "Quick" to produce method in PD, I'd set your XF705 to shoot UHD, Wide DR, in AVC (8 Bit 4:2:0) @ 50fps and convert to MKV (for 4ch Audio converted to Stereo)

    2. If you want the "Best" quality and want to grade you footage in PD, I'd set your XF705 to UHD HEVC (10-Bit 4:2:2) @ 50fps. At some point PD will natively support this format but, in the interim you could use the "MKF HEVC to Pro Res" script that will take the Long GOP HEVC 10-Bit 4:2:2 footage from the XF705 and convert it to ProRes HQ all I Frame 4:2:2 that PD can edit. I've updated the util to make it (a bit) quicker and also changed the Audio Layout to match your preference. This Pro Res format will give you much more flexibility to grade, apply LUTS etc in PD. When PD adds a (HDR) 10 Bit output, you could then open up your old projects and simply produce in this new profile. I have no idea however when PD will add all of this. Only other option (for now) is to use another prog like Resolve.

    3. If your XF705 could shoot in a UHD 10Bit 4:2:0 profile (either HEVC or AVC) then it would be a great middle ground as you could just quick convert to MKV and I'm pretty sure it would import into PD. Unfortunately, I don't think the XF705 has this option.



    Personally, I'd probably go with #2 (assuming #3 is not possible). It will be a pain to transcode to ProRes in the interim to use in PD but your original as shot footage will be kept in the best possible format the XF705 can produce while you wait for PD to support importing the 10:Bit 4:2:2 HEVC clips and allows for the production of (HDR) 10:Bit projects.

    Thanks
    Nathan
     Filename
    MXF HEVC to Pro Res Stereo and 1 Stereo MKA File - Alt.zip
    [Disk]
     Description
     Filesize
    404 bytes
     Downloaded:
    758 time(s)

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 20. 2020 17:38

    PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
    Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
    GoPro Hero6 Black
    Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
    Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
    Reply
    NoudvR [Avatar]
    Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
    [Post New]
    Quote Looks like you are spoilt for choice on your XF705!

    • As you are in EU Stick with 25/50fps : If you ever need to do a project for someone in a NTSC country you can always change everything to 29.97/59.94 .. but just set, forget (and check) you are on 25/50fps

    • Looks like Filmic Pro (and a bunch of others) is available for the iPhone that lets you change your FPS which is good news



    Some other things to try (if you are bored): Having a better play trying to import various formats into PD, the biggest limitation in PD is the formats it will accept in 4:2:2 sub-sampling is only ProRes and V210. PD seems rather happy to accept 8 or 10-Bit content. Many will argue 10-Bit is more important than 4:2:2 for consumer production (as there is no 4:2:2 consumer content anyway) as you get 1024 levels for 10-Bit over 256 in 8-Bit. Perfect for HDR. The next limitation is that unfortunately PD does not seem to support producing in (HDR) 10-Bit for any format that I can find (but I'm sure it will come at some point). Even so, 10-Bit could still be of interest to you if you want to do any grading of your footage.

    So at present I'd suggest

    1. If you want a "Quick" to produce method in PD, I'd set your XF705 to shoot UHD, Wide DR, in AVC (8 Bit 4:2:0) @ 50fps and convert to MKV (for 4ch Audio converted to Stereo)

    2. If you want the "Best" quality and want to grade you footage in PD, I'd set your XF705 to UHD HEVC (10-Bit 4:2:2) @ 50fps. At some point PD will natively support this format but, in the interim you could use the "MKF HEVC to Pro Res" script that will take the Long GOP HEVC 10-Bit 4:2:2 footage from the XF705 and convert it to ProRes HQ all I Frame 4:2:2 that PD can edit. I've updated the util to make it (a bit) quicker and also changed the Audio Layout to match your preference. This Pro Res format will give you much more flexibility to grade, apply LUTS etc in PD. When PD adds a (HDR) 10 Bit output, you could then open up your old projects and simply produce in this new profile. I have no idea however when PD will add all of this. Only other option (for now) is to use another prog like Resolve.

    3. If your XF705 could shoot in a UHD 10Bit 4:2:0 profile (either HEVC or AVC) then it would be a great middle ground as you could just quick convert to MKV and I'm pretty sure it would import into PD. Unfortunately, I don't think the XF705 has this option.



    Personally, I'd probably go with #2 (assuming #3 is not possible). It will be a pain to transcode to ProRes in the interim to use in PD but your original as shot footage will be kept in the best possible format the XF705 can produce while you wait for PD to support importing the 10:Bit 4:2:2 HEVC clips and allows for the production of (HDR) 10:Bit projects.

    Thanks
    Nathan

    Hi Nathan,

    The XF705 has so many options to choose from to tailor it to your needs. A wonderful camera! A bit of a learning curve in the beginning, but once you get to know the menu’s it becomes easier. On top of that I like the programmable buttons on the outside that let you choose the most used options instantly during shooting.

    Thanks for the good advice on shooting in 8/10 bit etc. The XF705 does not shoot UHD in 10 bit 4:2:0 indeed. For now, I will stick to your option 2. I used your tool to convert my HEVC footage to ProRes. The resulting MKV files are way bigger than the ones from camera, as you already warned me for. It does the trick but is more demanding for my storage capacity. And that is a shame, because the XF705 produces relatively small files by using H265 in camera. I hope that Cyberlink will honor my suggestions to create real support for the Canon MXF-files.

    Enjoy your XF405!
    Noud
    Reply
    jmone
    Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
    [Post New]
    Hi Noud,
    I've always been tempted to go the XF705 but it is a bit bigger. There are alot of new Camera releases at present, so I'm hoping for a refresh of the XF400 series to pack in the goodness of the XF705 Codecs in it's smaller size with a removable handle (great for travel etc).... or maybe a C70.... or ??? I do like the fixed lens camcorder format however

    I hear you on the Pro Res size. The main reason they are so large, is instead of HEVC Long Gop, it is now ProRes all I Frames. One good side effect is that an all I Frame Proxy is much easier to edit on a timeline and for the Preview (many people use all I Frame Proxys for this reason). That said, I agree that the real soln is for PD to Support:

    • HEVC 10-Bit 4:2:2 Import and

    • 10 Bit 4:2:0 Export



    ...also, keep in mind that you don't need to keep the Proxy ProRes Files once you have finished with your project production (the following presumes you do keep your MXF files). If you keep all your MXF and Proxy Pro Res in the same folder when making your project:

    • You could always regenerate them if/when needed from the original MXF files, or even

    • Once PD releases HEVC 10-Bit 4:2:2 support, you could open up the "project_name.pds" file in a good text editor like "Notepad++" and simple do a Find and Replace changing "mxf.mov" to "mxf" and the project will now use the MXF files. Given the time time codes are all the same it should all work well, with the excpetion of changing in the project how PD will manage the 4 Mono Tracks.



    Then again, HDD space is cheap now.

    Thanks
    Nathan PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
    Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
    GoPro Hero6 Black
    Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
    Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
    Reply
    jmone
    Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Australia Joined: Nov 26, 2010 00:05 Messages: 702 Offline
    [Post New]
    FYI - I've now also submitted the following to PD:

    ---------------------

    Hi,
    I've been assisting a user in this thread regarding working with UHD HEVC 10 Bit 4:2:2 material from their Canon XF705 Camcorder (https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/83388.page). I was a Beta Tester for PD pre-releases for many years and used to provide feedback under that program (which I no longer have access to, so I'm using this form).
    I have feedback in three areas:
    1) 4:2:2 Import Support: It is good that PD now supports 4:2:2 import support but it is limited to ProRes / V210. It seems that PD This needs to be expanded to other containers like MXF, MP4, MKV etc. For now I've created (as documented in the thread above) a HEVC 10 Bit 4:2:2 in MXF --> 10 Bit 4:2:2 ProRes HQ in MOV proxy generator so the user can bring in their footage into PD
    2) MXF Support for Multi Audio Streams: It is also good that PD can now open MXF containers, but the handling of the multiple Mono Audio Streams needs additional work. MXF containers can have a large number of these streams and there needs to be a way of assign each of these to a particular Channel in a stream. Eg it could be Mono Stream 1 --> Left Channel on Stereo Track 1 & Mono Stream 2 --> Right Channel on Stereo Track 1 (eg from Internal Stereo Mic); Mono Stream 3 --> Mono Track 2 (eg Shotgun Mic). I've attached how Resolve does this in a nice intuitive way. I've also created a remuxer script for the user that pre-process their MXF clips and muxes the Mono Streams in Stereo into a MKV container so they can use the "Language Feature" in PD. Not ideal but it is a workaround.
    3) 10 Bit Output Support: I know this may take longer, but PD does need to add a 10-Bit output format. If you are able to take in ProRes 10-Bit 4:2:2, these users will want to be able to output 10-Bit 4:2:0 and are currently limited to 8 Bit.
    I've also attached the Zip file with a range of ffmpeg scripts for converting
    Thanks
    Nathan PD 64 Bit-Win10 64 Bit-32GB RAM-80TB HDD
    Canon XF400 - 150Mbps 4k/50p AVC
    GoPro Hero6 Black
    Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
    Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
    Reply
    NoudvR [Avatar]
    Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
    [Post New]
    Quote FYI - I've now also submitted the following to PD:

    Thanks, Nathan, for bringing this to the attention of Cyberlink. Your explanation is far better than what I could have written. Probably has more impact too, coming from an experienced beta tester!
    I cannot wait for the results 😊
    Reply
    NoudvR [Avatar]
    Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
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    What is the blue triangle in the top right-hand corner next to each message?
    I was curious and clicked on it. It than marked the answer as solution and I cannot remove it.
    If this is the intended behavior a pop-up with some explanatory text would be appreciated.
    How can I remove my ‘solution vote’?
    Reply
    JL_JL [Avatar]
    Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 4560 Offline
    [Post New]
    Quote What is the blue triangle in the top right-hand corner next to each message?
    I was curious and clicked on it. It than marked the answer as solution and I cannot remove it.
    If this is the intended behavior a pop-up with some explanatory text would be appreciated.
    How can I remove my ‘solution vote’?

    The blue arrow is just to go to the top of the current page.

    The forum has several threads with messed up "solution" controls. I saw several threads get hacked when CL fixed a previous forum issue. You can see one such thread here: https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/83087.page#post_box_343521 optodata post is listed as a solution to his own post, usually not possible. Many other threads like that too.

    If the mark is offensive to you, contact forum moderator and see if they will correct.


    Quote I hear you on the Pro Res size. The main reason they are so large, is instead of HEVC Long Gop, it is now ProRes all I Frames.

    Just verify that PD is doing what you want after "Produce" to common profiles and results are good, audio too. Several issues with all "I" frame source from certain cameras and support aware of them with: "Cyberlink tech support responded that they've been able to reproduce the issue in their lab and have forwarded it on to engineering." I've not tried ffmpeg all "I" as source to know if the same issue persists. I've not seen a fix yet.

    Jeff
    Reply
    NoudvR [Avatar]
    Newbie Private Message Joined: Apr 11, 2019 13:17 Messages: 34 Offline
    [Post New]
    Quote

    The blue arrow is just to go to the top of the current page.

    The forum has several threads with messed up "solution" controls. I saw several threads get hacked when CL fixed a previous forum issue. You can see one such thread here: https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/83087.page#post_box_343521 optodata post is listed as a solution to his own post, usually not possible. Many other threads like that too.

    If the mark is offensive to you, contact forum moderator and see if they will correct.

    Just verify that PD is doing what you want after "Produce" to common profiles and results are good, audio too. Several issues with all "I" frame source from certain cameras and support aware of them with: "Cyberlink tech support responded that they've been able to reproduce the issue in their lab and have forwarded it on to engineering." I've not tried ffmpeg all "I" as source to know if the same issue persists. I've not seen a fix yet.

    Jeff

    Thanks for clarifying this. So unintended behavior of the blue triangle.
    I am not bothered by the wrong solution vote, but it might be confusing for other forum users looking for the solution.

    I hope Cyberlink will support all modern codec and bit levels soon as I see many having problems with them.
    Reply
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