CyberLink Community Forum
where the experts meet
| Advanced Search >
Editing problems with 4k files
Reply to this topic
The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
[Post New]
Hi Tony

Just to clarify the situation with shadow files. Once they are generated I can edit them in the timeline. What do I do then? Do I just render them in the normal way, or is some other action required prior to rendering?

@mark326

Hi Mark

Us GH4 people have to stick together and get this sorted. Can you give me clue as to which editors you know will do the job without all this fuss. Personally, as much as I love using Powerdirector I can no longer sing its praises. Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
Reply
ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9870 Offline
[Post New]
Quote: Once they are generated I can edit them in the timeline. What do I do then? Do I just render them in the normal way, or is some other action required prior to rendering?


That's right Robert. Just do that. No other action is required.

How's the playback now that the shadow files have finished generating?

There may well be other NLEs that handle the 4K clips from GH4 more smoothly. It's all a bit of a combination of video properties, hardware, software, OS. I haven't done any similar testing with other NLEs, but it's a fact that it's going to be hard work for even a decent PC, whatever software is used.

Cheers - Tony
Visit PDtoots. PowerDirector Tutorials, tips, free resources & more. Subscribe!
Full linked Tutorial Catalog
PDtoots happily supports fellow PowerDirector users!
Reply
[Post New]
GH4 produces 4k video with a data rate of 100Mbps. That's the whole reason why direct editing is virtually impossible at this time - highest quality 1920x1080p60 goes only to 28Mbps - and that is taxing on high-end PC systems.

To edit fluently 4k files at this point in time requires dedicated hardware. For example, one of those:
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/decklink/models
https://www.aja.com/en/family/kona

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at Dec 16. 2014 20:56

Reply
The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
[Post New]
Thanks All

The shadow files do the job - thank you. But I fear it will take all day, but never mind it better than thinking it wasn't working at all.

Many thanks to all those who contributed to my plight.

I'm still a PD fan!!

Robert Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
Reply
Craigster [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jan 13, 2015 22:27 Messages: 3 Offline
[Post New]
What fun! I've been fighting this issue for several weeks. Yes, shadow files do make a difference. However, I have seen both a project work ok after shadow files completed rendering, and another project still skip occasionally after shadow files have completed rendering. While that was frustrating to work though, the sluggishness of the interface with 4k GH4 files is almost unbearable. Even when I'm not playing the time line, the response times "sometimes" when I click on things on the time line to move them, resize them, etc. will sometimes take several seconds before the action is completed and I can begin playing the clip again. And if I expand the timeline to zoom in a large amount, this sluggish response behavior gets a lot worse compared to seeing all the timeline at once. Rather odd to me. Click and wait, click and wait. Yes, quite frustrating. And then I've had PD 13 freeze up for no apparent reason. Yes, I know 4k files are a much higher bit rate. So what 1 thing can I do hardware wise that will speed things up and reduce or eliminate the click and wait behavior?

On another note, has anyone seen the entire interface simply not refresh after a particular action is done? I saw this in PD12 on normal 1080 files and it continues in PD13. If I mouse over parts of the interface, they redraw. So I minimize the window and expand it again. Viola! The interface is refreshed. A bug, not yet fixed. Video is fun
Reply
[Post New]
I think that 4K is just a "want" at this point. There is no actual benefit of 4k videos in living rooms, on actual TV sizes, only on big screen theatres.
For a 70" diagonal UHTV, in order to be able to perceive all those "4k" details, the view distance has to be not more than 5 feet.
Who does that?

Plus, paybe in some 3-5 years hardware will be sufficient for 4K 30p, not today. Even if some people already are crying that they don't have the 4k 60p today...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jan 13. 2015 23:00

Reply
Craigster [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jan 13, 2015 22:27 Messages: 3 Offline
[Post New]
Thank you for your reply SoNic67. I have to agree with you on the 4K videos. 1080 is amazing on HD TVs. However, in video work, 4K (and specifically from a GH4 camera) has some very useful benefits when producing output at 1080 and even 720. And this is why I began to use 4K is some situations.

The benefits of shooting in 4K on the GH4 and outputting in 1080 or 720 include:
- Sharper output at 1080 and 720
- Almost non-existent moire
- Options to crop down to 1/4 of the 4K screen and still have 1080 quality. This provides the ability to reframe a shot in post if needed. Add zoom/pan motions in post with no loss of 1080 resolution. Punch in and out during interviews without having to use/set up a second camera.
- And having experience with 4K ahead of the audience curve.

There are other benefits that many others have documented on the internet. So 4K is quite helpful to me at the present time, even with the editing issues I'm currently dealing with. I'm sure a faster machine would help and that will certainly be a consideration as I move forward.

Regards. Video is fun
Reply
BarryTheCrab
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: USA Joined: Nov 06, 2008 22:18 Messages: 6120 Online
[Post New]
The superior ability to crop and retain a sharp image is most interesting to me, but 4K will be more popular as the millions of existing FullHD cams wear out and break, as I think many people will keep their perfectly functional cameras to the last possible moment. Opinion.

HP Envy Phoenix/4thGen i7-4770(4@3.4GHz~turbo>3.9)/Nvidia GTX 960(4GB)/16GB DDR3/7,200rpm/w10x64---
Canon Vixia HV30/HF-M40/HF-M41/HF-G20/Olympus E-PL5. Tape capture using 4 VCR, TBC, Elite BVP4+, Sony D8 camcorder with TBC.
https://www.facebook.com/B-Gill-Cyber-Studio-6
Reply
[Post New]
Quote: 4K (and specifically from a GH4 camera) has some very useful benefits when producing output at 1080 and even 720.

Those are all good reasons for commercial video production, I was speaking from a home-user point of view.
IMO home videos (or pictures) look better when framing is done by optical zooming versus cropping.

Also note that CL's EULA specifies that PD is not to be used commercially.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jan 14. 2015 10:35

Reply
Craigster [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jan 13, 2015 22:27 Messages: 3 Offline
[Post New]
Just a quick update. This must be a little known caveat that the support folks are not aware of. The support folks have told me to update my GPU driver to the latest version. I did this, and after my poking around on the system requirements page, I noticed that PD13 does not use my GPU for hardware acceleration with the latest NVidia driver (Dec 2014). Hmmm... so I followed the link, downloaded and installed the previous version (May 2014). Now PD13 is using my GPU for hardware acceleration and the program's sluggish and click and wait behavior with 4K files has almost completely ceased. Bear in mind that my shadow files for these 4K source files have already been created. So, it took both completed shadow files and the previous version of NVidia graphics card driver to make things mostly smooth with 4K video editing.

Regards

P.S. Another cool thing with 4K video is I can grab any frame from the footage and get an 8 megapixel image that is good enough to print on photo paper! Sweet!

System Requirements: http://www.cyberlink.com/products/powerdirector-ultra/spec_en_US.html?&r=1

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Jan 14. 2015 22:40

Video is fun
Reply
Arlene [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Dec 28, 2013 12:02 Messages: 1 Offline
[Post New]
I've been through all of the situations mentioned above, and I've found that shadow files do indeed work. My only question is how can I speed up the shadow file generation, or force shadow file generation? I'm editing the behind the scenes of a feature film and I have a ridiculous amount of 4K files from a GH4. My computer is decked out with all the bells and whistles. I'm trying to insert all files in PD13 and have them shadow file. I started editing without them being complete and it's like pulling my hair!!! I need them all processed. Also on a side note... If anyone ever figured out how to get the GH4 to not breakup recordings into 4gb files that would be great!! The way it chops files and has the audio break in between files is just about enough to ruin a shoot!!!
Reply
The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
[Post New]
Arlene

If you are fed up with shadow files have a look at this thread. Take particular note of the post from ynotfish, it explains how to get round shadow files using Format Factory. It is very, very much quicker and extremely easy to do. If you use FF just remember to select the 1920x1080 HD as an output setting.

4GBs from your GH4, tell me about it, it does certainly ruin the audio. However, try stitching the files together with TSmuxer, it should work for you. For MP4 files try MP4 Joiner.

Both the FF and TSmuxer are free, but essential for us 4k people.

Also, one last thing - If you have an intel processor such as i5 or i7 go here http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/support/detect?iid=dc_iduu and search for a driver dated 29th May this will help with 4K editing in PD.

I hope this info is of help to you

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 28. 2015 15:53

Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
Reply
[Post New]
Sonic67

I'm afraid that 4k is a reality worldwide (even in South Africa) for both TVs and Cameras.

One of the big advantages of editing in 4k is that 4k is four times the resolution of HD so even if you output HD you will still get full HD when you zoom or pan down to 1/4 of the image.

The next advantage is when we get 4k DVDs we can produce 4k quality with our original projects. Until then, we can view 4 on our UHDTVs with H.264 4k files.

It is possible to edit 4k in real-time (no shadow files) without waiting 3-5 years for future hardware.

As an example I am using Edius software from Grass Valley. This is professional high-end editing software that we used to associate with expensive hardware (Dual Xenon etc) but works fine on single i7 CPU systems.

Edius is not a competitor to PDR13 as it is very expensive professional level software and I'm using it to show that the technology is possible.

Here is a video from 2013 Using an older Core i7 950 with 6Gb ram and NVIDIA 9800Gt with 512Mb using Edius 7 and a Canon EOS-1D C 4k. Real-time performance even works with a Core i5.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXtfdhT8A2k#t=21

Next is an example from 2014 of realtime editing using native 4k footage from a Panasonic Lumix and Edius 7 on a Core i7 4790k with 16Gb memory and NVIDIA midrange graphics card
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwTc5Rjdm-o

Next is Edius 8 (latest) on a Core i7 4710MQ 2,5Ghz laptop with 16Gb memory and Win 8.1 (about $1500) showing the speed of Intel QuickSync and the Intel Graphics 4600 on the CPU.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc2GxrvZKhs

Some of the performance may be due to the "lossless" codec they have developed but it's available for free here.
http://www.grassvalley.com/products/hqx_codec

They say the codec works with any editing software that uses Quicktime and remains loslees for 10 generations!
Is there a way to try the codec with PDR13?

So software is as important as hardware and it is possible to edit in realtime with today's technology and a reasonably priced PC.

Cyberklnk can also do it.

Al

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Aug 01. 2015 19:26

Power Director 13&14 Ultimate, Photo Director 6, Audio Dir, Pwr2Go 10
Win 10 64, Intel MB DH87MC, Intel i5-4670 CPU @ 3.40GHz, 16Gb DDR3 1600, 128Gb SSD, 2x1Tb WDBlue 7200rpmSATA6, Intel 4600 GPU, Gigabyte G1 GTX960 4GB, LG BluRay Writer
Reply
Paul1945
Contributor Private Message Location: South Africa Joined: Apr 12, 2014 14:11 Messages: 327 Offline
[Post New]
Hi Guys
was away in the Kruger National Park to Shoot with my new Panasonic 1000 4k...Game in 4 K and 20 Time Zoom !!!

I Agree full and 100 % with you AL.Just for me PD13 ...Edius 8 I had id for a Test Run but ...Not for me !!! ..

I am wayting to see what win10 will do !!!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Aug 01. 2015 12:03

Pauls PC
X399 AORUS Extreme/AMD Ryzen2970WX/1xQuatro 4000 Driver:Geforce 419.67Skill V DDR4 64GB/3200MHz/Win10 prox64
Intel SSD 750/400 / Intel SSD 750/1.2Tb 1x4TB SSHD /1xSeagate 10TB pro
1xSamsung UA28D590 4k LUMIX GH5 1xLG HDR
Reply
Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
[Post New]
Quote: I think that 4K is just a "want" at this point. There is no actual benefit of 4k videos in living rooms, on actual TV sizes, only on big screen theatres.
For a 70" diagonal UHTV, in order to be able to perceive all those "4k" details, the view distance has to be not more than 5 feet.
Who does that?

Plus, paybe in some 3-5 years hardware will be sufficient for 4K 30p, not today. Even if some people already are crying that they don't have the 4k 60p today...




Watching 4K on a 70" TV and a 24" PC monitor I can safely say that the above, very common argument is mostly BS.

I ran some tests using still images that had small writing that could be read at 4K but was a blur at HD.

Even at 9', the max viewing distance in the den, on the 70" TV my wife and I could clearly discern the difference. Typical viewing is app 8'.

And that Panasonic can do 60FPS.



Had no luck with win10, tried 6 times under various set ups, it hangs at 76 to 80 %.



Eugene

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Aug 01. 2015 14:08

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
Reply
Alek14 [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jul 18, 2016 04:49 Messages: 2 Offline
[Post New]
Hi

I have also problem with editing high bitrate (100 MB/sec) 4K video.
My computer has 14 core CPU, 64 GB RAM.
I like to use Smart Rendering Video Editing, which allows me to save file in this same format like before editing.
The saving is very quick but the editing process is disrupted, (jumping).
I think that major problem is: such program (Power Director 14) should have option, during installation to ask: eg. your system has 64 GB RAM How much Max. RAM do you want to reserve for this program?

Then the editing process should be much smoother, because the whole process will be done between CPU and RAM not CPU RAM and Hard Drive.
This is my opinion.

I remember one chemistry program with chemical spectra. During installation the program was asking how much RAM do you wish to reserve for this program.
The more RAM the computer had the faster the spectra were loaded.

Alek
Reply
[Post New]
Hi Alek - You don't say which i series 4 core CPU you have.
Two possible suggestions
First make sure you are using Shadow Files and wait until PDR14 finishes generating all of them (Green indicator). It can take some time to complete with 4k clips.
Second - for smooth 4k editing without Shadow Files try the procedure in this thread. Using this tool I can smoothly edit 4k on my core i5 cpu.
http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/46177.page

Hope that helps.
Al

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 18. 2016 05:42

Power Director 13&14 Ultimate, Photo Director 6, Audio Dir, Pwr2Go 10
Win 10 64, Intel MB DH87MC, Intel i5-4670 CPU @ 3.40GHz, 16Gb DDR3 1600, 128Gb SSD, 2x1Tb WDBlue 7200rpmSATA6, Intel 4600 GPU, Gigabyte G1 GTX960 4GB, LG BluRay Writer
Reply
Alek14 [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jul 18, 2016 04:49 Messages: 2 Offline
[Post New]
Hi ALS

This is 14 core processor
Intel® Xeon® Processor E5-4660 v3 (35M Cache, 2.10 GHz)
http://goo.gl/IdjBdy

and MSI GeForce GTX Titan X 12GB Video Card

For such system it should not need to create shadow files.
I even create hard drive on my RAM to edit 4K video (bitrate 100 MB/sec) only saving process, after edditing, was aproximately 2-3 times quicker.
Reply
The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
[Post New]
Hi Alek

It's a fact of life, I'm afraid. It seems no matter how powerful your machine is PD cannot handle 4K efficiently. You will probably be hard pushed to find any affordable NLE to do the job easily. I have two other, so called, 4K capable editing programs and neither of them work properly.

Al is absolutely right in suggesting that you use Magic+PD to create AVI files for editing in PD.

M+PD is totally lossless so you will not lose any quality, and you will gain effortless editing. All you need to do is produce to your original specification. I use it for all my 4K work.

Robert

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Jul 20. 2016 15:39

Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
Reply
Reply to this topic
Powered by JForum 2.1.8 © JForum Team