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Problems with Panasonic TM900 1080p50 project  XML
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GerryV

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Joined: 14/03/2012 02:30:39
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Hi all,

I'm new here so hello everyone, I'm Gerry from The Netherlands, 44 year old, male, and trying to get my project produced for over a week now .

I have the following situation:
  • PC: MSI X58 Pro-E, Intel i7 950, ATi HD5850, Windows XP SP3, 6GB memory of which only 3GB visible (yeah I know ), latest drivers of everything, etc. Dxdiag attached.
  • PD: PD10 Ultra, patch 1424c
  • Camera: Panasonic HDC-TM900, PAL version

  • I shot a lot of footage on vacation in New Zealand, and after coming back I searched for a good program to compile parts of that footage, and photos, into a nice movie with transitions, title, etc. Power Director had the best papers IMO, so I purchased it.
    Have spent a lot of time authoring my movie, which was nice to do with PD; the UI is intuitive and offers plenty of functionality to do whatever you like. I actually enjoyed making the movie even though it took ages, but seeing all the footage and discovering the possibilities of PD was a pleasure. Some minor frustrations every now and then, like when using PD for a while, previews first have to render before they play, whereas after starting up fresh it always plays previews without having to wait. BTW does anybody know why this is? Cache memory getting full?

    Anyway, movie authoring is finished, movie is 2 hrs 37 mins, and now I've been trying for a week to get it produced. I want to produce it to 1080p50 with minimal quality loss. I think I've read all related posts on the forum and tried all suggestions, but I'm still not successful. Here's my experience of the past week, and current status:
  • First attempt I clicked Intelligent SVRT, it suggested two 1080p50 profiles, one with 25.5Mbps video and one with 26.3Mbps. I chose 25.5 and left it running overnight. It got to 45 mins (movie time) and it crashed (don't remember whether it was BSOD or reboot). The file was rendered with SVRT largely (Single IDR enabled), and has transition artifacts (couple of black frames) at the transition from SVRT to rendering (strange since most of you seem to have problems in the reverse). I thought it could have something to do with cross fades instead of overlap fades, so I made a second version of the project with only overlap fades. BTW I also saw that a small number of clips (2 or 3 out of maybe 100) had been rendered in a "frozen" state, just the first frame after the transition is there, and then it stays like that until the next transition. Audio is continuing during that freeze.
  • Second attempt I tried 26.3Mbps with overlap fades, and this one got to only 13 mins after which it also crashed. For the rest same results as first attempt: transition problems and frozen clips.
  • Third attempt tried 25.5 Mbps with overlap fades: 6 mins crash or program freeze, don't remember. Same problems in the result. The program freeze: program is still alive but rendering has stopped. In most cases a process called CES_CacheAgent is occupying 13% (sic; ?) of CPU, but no changes in memory use. PDR10.exe has 0% CPU use and no change in memory use. In some other attempts I've also seen no CES_CacheAgent after a program freeze, but PDR10.exe is occupying 1 or 2% of CPU.
  • Fourth attempt: disabled Fast rendering / SVRT, 25.5Mbps with cross fades. Got to 24 minutes. No transition problems, but still some frozen clips.
  • Fifth attempt: also disabled "remove blocking" (in preferences and in the profile), chose 26.3Mbps again, project with cross fades. Got to almost 26 mins, same result.
  • Sixth attempt: bumped up the min and max bitrates in the profile. Got to 1h 3min! No transition problems, but some frozen clips (1 or 2).
  • Seventh attempt: I remembered I did not install Quicktime when installing PD. Quicktime is only used by Smartsound, which I didn't/don't use. But I read on the forum that it may cause problems, so I installed it (extracted from the PD installer). I also disabled Shadow Files, and made sure to delete all existing ones from the hard drive. Only got to 4 mins.
  • Eighth attempt: changed BIOS settings to the "BIOS failsafe" values. No Crash anymore!!! Also changed GOP structure from M=2, N=29 to M=3, N=22. I actually wanted N=24, same as the original clips from the camera, but the structure IBBPBBPBBPBBPBBPBBPBBPBB yields 22: PD seems only capable of GOPs ending in a P frame. Got to 14 mins, after which it freezes (stops rendering).
  • Further attempts: various combinations of GOP structure, dynamic GOP yes/no, overlap or cross fades, different bitrates, CAVLC instead of CABAC, update of Quicktime, even safer BIOS settings (Intel cstate disabled, phase control disabled, spread spectrum disabled), ran memory and CPU stress tests only to find that even the stress test applications were getting tired. Heck I even tried rendering in Windows safe mode to rule out any interference from certain drivers, and I tried disabling the Realtek audio driver because someone on the forum reported it solved his problem. I pushed bitrate down to 20Mbps with no luck, PD still freezes after a while. I tried various speedquality settings: all the above is setting 8, I tried 7 and 6, but the latter already yields a lot of quality loss. I tried rendering to the PD-supplied 720p profile, and to 1080p25 (adapted profile), both freeze after a while. Best result I had was with GOP sizes 2:29 (same as the custom profile that Intelligent SVRT originally suggests), dynamic GOP disabled, 26.3Mbps (video bitrate 26314344), min and max bitrates increased (from default 0 and 28000000 to 22500000 and 32000000), overlap fades, and SVRT and SSE-unblocking disabled. Got to 1h 47 mins, with only 3 clips frozen.
  • Last attempt I did was to completely uninstall PD (control panel followed by CLCleaner just in case), reboot, reinstall including Quicktime, and try again with the most successful settings as before. Freeze at 14 mins.


  • I did not use GPU acceleration (not supported by PD under Windows XP), and I did not use hardware encoding (not supported either and I know it produces bad quality results).

    I monitored CPU and memory usage during PD's work: CPU has its 8 cores busy, but only at about 30 to 50%. Physical memory use never gets above 2.2 GB, most of the time it's around 1.8 GB. I did not see anything unusual around a freeze. I am convinced that it is not my system's capacity that is the problem. I can have Handbrake running a batch with around 95% continuous CPU usage with no problem at all.
    In fact, that is what I'm doing right now: while I'm typing away, Handbrake is converting all my clips to 15Mbps. Then I'm going to try again to produce the project (I tested and I can use the transcoded files, even though they're MKV, as drop-in replacements for the .MTS files by renaming them). Not that I'll stop if that works, since quality will take a hit, I just want to know if it then fully renders.

    Ideally, SVRT would work without transition problems. I understand that the artifacts are due to timestamp problems, and that some players do not seem to have be bothered by them and do not show the artifacts. So far I have only tested on VLC on my PC. My Popcorn Hour cannot handle L4.2 (but a future player I buy will : so to test with it I'd have to convert with Handbrake, which means I'd actually be testing with Handbrake. I'll do that and see what happens.
    Does anybody know a remuxer or even a "recoder"/converter that handles the timestamp mismatches well, without artifacts?

    I would very much appreciate your feedback. Suggestions to make it work are more than welcome. I will probably try splitting up my project at points where an SVRT transition artifact is not a problem, produce those separately without SVRT, and then import them into a new project that I'll render with SVRT.

    Is there anybody out there that has successfully produced a real project, not just some test clips but a 2+ hr project with video from a TM900, photos, titles, transitions (different ones, 2D and 3D-like), background music, changes in volume in both background music and main track, trimmed and multi-trimmed parts, magic motion effects on photos, sped up video, and perhaps even an audio dub here and there?

    Cheers,
    Gerry.
    GerryV

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    Joined: 14/03/2012 02:30:39
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    Dxdiag got lost somehow.
     Filename Gerry - DxDiag.txt [Disk] Download
     Description
     Filesize 48 Kbytes
     Downloaded:  91 time(s)

    stevek

    Senior Contributor

    Joined: 25/01/2011 09:18:57
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    Please define produced as you are using it here. What is your ultimate plan for the video you are producing? What format are you producing it to? Are you working with high definition or standard definition?

    Just for information purposes, if you plan to burn that project to a standard DVD, it will never fit on a single layer. It is at the upper most size for a double layer if you don't mind that the video appearance will not be very good. In most cases any more than 2 hours on a double sided DVD will have some loss of quality. Once you do get it burned, then you will have to decide if there is too much loss in quality.

    Since you have the project saved, you may want to try making a small new project with one of the clips from the big project. Throw in some edits, transitions, video effects, etc. See if the shorter project will encode and what the best settings are for you.

    I wasn't going to mention this but the issue has come up with other editing software. Panasonic and Sony have been notorously bad in complying with international standards. They like to write their own formats that are a little off from the standards. If you have an issue with the short version, take a couple of the video files and convert them to a mpg2 file. (high definitin or not). There are several free video converters that seem to do a good job. Once they are converted, try using them in another short ptoject. The same holds true for certain mov files produced by digital cameras-- not camcorders. (Experience is the source for this comment.)

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 14/05/2012 10:15:03


    Anything I post unless stated with a reference is my personal opinion.
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    GerryV

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    Joined: 14/03/2012 02:30:39
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    Hi SteveK,

    Thanks for your quick reply!
    Sorry if I wasn't entirely clear: I'm working with HD source material (TM900 1080p50 clips and 10+ MP photos), and want to produce to a 1080p50 file as close as possible to the TM900 source material.

    The media player I use to watch everything is a Popcorn Hour C200, which does not support L4.2 H.264, so I will convert the PD-produced output to L4.1 or L5.1 using Handbrake (L4.1 officially does not support framerates above 30 for 1080p). In time I will buy a media player that does support L4.2, so I would still like to produce to 1080p50 H.264 High Profile Level 4.2.

    Trying things in a short project I think is not gonna help me: I've already tried that. Also, I had an occurrence where 1 hr 47 mins of the large project was produced (albeit with 3 frozen clips), and other unsuccessful attempts failed at points where this one went OK. Short projects work fine, the problem is with the large project.

    For clarity: I have 3 remaining problems:
    1. Program Freeze: PD stops rendering at random times, and there is no way I can get it to resume (tried everything, from pausing and resuming in PD's GUI, killing PDHanumanSrv (restarts automatically but rendering does not resume), killing CES_CacheAgent, killing RichVideo, and combinations of those in different orders.
    2. Frozen clips: somehow I think this is related to problem 1: rendering stops, but in this case the rendering resumes after the current clip finishes.
    3. Artifacts (black frames) at the transition from SVRT to rendering.

    Problems 1 and 2 only occur sometimes, so normally not seen in short projects.
    jmone

    Contributor

    Joined: 25/11/2010 21:05:45
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    I can't help with why you PC is hanging but from my testing on 1080/50p material, the most reliable 50p output is currently to use CPU encoding. It will take longer but can be remuxed to other containers unlike the SVRT or GPU options and has no transition issue. While I'd love SVRT to work consistently to ensure no unnecessary re-encoding happens the CPU Rendered output looks the same to my eyes.

    To create the output, under "Produce" I:
    1) Select "Intelligent SVRT" Button --> I then am offered a "AVC 1920x1080/50p(28Mbps) profile which I then "Apply"
    2) I check the "Dolby Digital 5.1" option (as that is what I recorded in)
    3) I UNCHECK the "Fast video Rendering technology"
    4) Press start......

    This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 14/05/2012 15:02:50


    PD12 64 Bit-Win8 64 Bit-4GB 760-i7 3770K-16GB RAM-30TB HDD
    GoPro Hero3 Black
    Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
    Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
    GerryV

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    Joined: 14/03/2012 02:30:39
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    Ho jmone,

    Thanks for your post.
    My PC doesn't hang or crash after I adapted my BIOS settings. The method you described I also tried, but now that I think about it, that may have been before I changed BIOS settings... After changing them I did the same again, but by that time I had a custom profile and the settings may have been slightly different, so I'll try again by deleting profile.ini and using the profile offered.

    Questions:
    1) There are 2 profiles offered for 28Mbps, one with video bitrate 25.5 and one with 26.3. Which one do you choose?
    2) Have you been able to produce a big project like that?
    3) What camera is your source material from?
    CubbyHouseFilms

    Senior Contributor

    Joined: 14/07/2009 01:23:28
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    Hi Gerry V

    Welcome to the volunteer forum

    I'm pleased you are working your way towards a solution and thank you for updating us on the BIOS stuff.

    I see (initially) you were producing a 2 hour project (a tad optimistic on your computer set up I'm afraid)

    High definition video editing is the most stress thing you can do on a consumer computer.

    What I do is to 'break' my project up into smaller projects Part 1, Part 2, Part 3 etc etc.

    Each Part is never more than 15/20 minutes in length.

    I then Produce each Part using a setting as close to the original source files as possible OR higher (you can always decrease quality never improve it). Note: PD10 has a custom produce profile as well.

    I then open a new Project and Import these Produced Parts and either burn a Blu-Ray or AVCHD DVD disc OR Produce and save file on my external hard drive.

    Happy editing

    This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 14/05/2012 21:27:44


    Happing editing

    Best Regards

    Neil
    CubbyHouseFilms

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    GerryV

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    Joined: 14/03/2012 02:30:39
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    Hi Neil / CubbyHouseFilms,

    Thanks for your input. I agree I don't have the fastest computer around (when I bought it it was ), but if during producing CPU load doesn't go above 30-50% and memory usage typically stays below 2GB, I'd say it should be more than good enough. I have considered upgrading to Windows 7 to get the full 6GB of memory in my PC, but I'd have to shell out $300 and go through the hassle of reinstalling drivers etc.
    I will indeed take the approach you're suggesting if that's the only way, but in that case I do believe that PD contains some important bugs that need fixing.

    Will keep you posted on further experiments.
    jmone

    Contributor

    Joined: 25/11/2010 21:05:45
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    Hi Gerry,
    I too tend to keep my stuff shorter as well with the average being 20min (my footage is just not that entertaining to produce a multi hour epic!). Anyway, I have had no issues with half hour 1080/50p stuff and would expect longer should also be fine. I do have a pretty good PC and run 64-bit version and really have never seen any instability in PD but YMMV.

    As per my sig - I use a TM700 and have the latest testing results in this thread - http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/30/20074.page

    I'm only offered the one profile under the H.264 AVC File Format:
    Profile Type: Default
    Profile Name: AVC 1920x1090/50p (28 Mbps)
    Country/video format of disc: PAL

    This profile has a Video Bitrate of 25.5 Mbps

    I have no profile that includes a 26.3 Mbps as either the overall bitrate or just for the video.

    I have to say the quality of these progressive cameras looks absolutely terrific when played back from the HTPC.

    Thanks
    Nathan

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 14/05/2012 21:50:04


    PD12 64 Bit-Win8 64 Bit-4GB 760-i7 3770K-16GB RAM-30TB HDD
    GoPro Hero3 Black
    Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
    Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
    pjc3

    Senior Member

    Joined: 29/05/2010 16:33:28
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    Hi Gerry,
    It is obvious from your posts you have a thorough understanding of your problem have tried most options and I have only a couple of user experiences to add for your interest. I edit 1080p60 (TM700) and render at 32Mbps. I have no rendering problems and my files play beautifully on my Dune over (wired) network.

    1. I use GPU rendering but have nVidia card and use an older driver which gives excellent results (better than my CPU). Several newer drivers caused artifact problems. My testing (and extensive discussions with Nathan) are buried somewhere in the forum.

    2. I have a much lower spec PC but use 64bit and 6GB RAM.

    3. Although I have edited projects of 90mins, I strongly agree that the more complex the project, the shorter the individual segments should be. I don't have rendering problems but PD does crash more often with the long projects.

    Regards.

    PS. I will be in NZ in two days but the GoPro is coming this time!

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/05/2012 13:41:43


    Panasonic SD9, Panasonic TM700, Panasonic SD600, GoPro HD Hero.
    jmone

    Contributor

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    We are off to walk the Inca Trail to Machu Picchu and while I'm taking the TM700 I'm a bit worried about the warning that the HDD "may fail" above 3000m as we will be hitting 4200m at one point.

    PD12 64 Bit-Win8 64 Bit-4GB 760-i7 3770K-16GB RAM-30TB HDD
    GoPro Hero3 Black
    Pana HS700-28Mbps 1080/50p AVC (High@L4.2)
    Canon HV20-HDV 25Mbps 16:9 1440x1080/25p MPEG
    JL_JL

    Senior Contributor

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    I can vouch for HDD issues that range in altitude from 9000-11000 feet with a few different brand HDD cameras. Just use SDHC and no issue that I experienced.

    Jeff
    James1

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    Hi,
    I am going to show my ignorance why would a video camera fail at a certain altitude? I
    Jim

    This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 15/05/2012 17:55:26


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    CubbyHouseFilms

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    JAMES1 wrote:Hi,
    I am going to show my ignorance why would a video camera fail at a certain altitude? I
    Jim


    Hi Jim

    The higher you go the colder it gets.

    Most modern cameras have an operating temperature range 0 C to 35 C is quite common due to the battery type.

    Outside of this temp range a camera (which contains requires insulation, seals etc.

    Sony make an all purpose camera for aggressive environments.

    Happy editing

    Happing editing

    Best Regards

    Neil
    CubbyHouseFilms

    My Youtube Channel
    My Vimeo Channel
    PD3.5, 5, 6 & 7. Computer: Dell Dimension 5150, Intel Pen. 2.80 GHz, 2GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8600GT 256MB, Windows XP Pro!!
    PD8 Ultra v3022. Computer: Dell Studio 1747, Intel, i7 Q740 1.73 GHz, 8GB RAM, ATI Mob. Radeon HD 560v 1GB, Windows 7 Ult. 64
    PD10 Ultra v2023. Computer: HP Pavilion dv7, Intel, i7 2630 2.00 GHz, 8GB RAM, ATI Mob. Radeon HD 6770 2GB, Windows 7 Pre. 64
    PD11 Ultim v2812. Computer: HP Pavilion dv7, Intel, i7 2630 2.00 GHz, 8GB RAM, ATI Mob. Radeon HD 6770 2GB, Windows 7 Pre. 64
    PD12 Ultra v2930. Computer: HP Pavilion dv7, Intel, i7 2630 2.00 GHz, 8GB RAM, ATI Mob. Radeon HD 6770 2GB, Windows 7 Pre. 64
    Director Suite: PowerDirector 12 v2930, PhotoDirector 4 v3419, ColorDirector Ultra 1 v3028, AudioDirector 3 v2321

    Cameras: Sony(s) HXR-NX5P, HXR-NX70P, NEX-VG10E, HDR TG5E, GoPro 2 Hero, Canon 6D DSLR

    Check out PDtoots. PowerDirector Tutorials and more. Subscribe!
    PDtoots happily supports fellow PowerDirector users!
    James1

    Senior Contributor

    Joined: 10/06/2010 13:20:03
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    Hi Neil,
    thanks for the information ....guess I'll have to get a warm jacket for my camcorder if I ever get to climb a mountain....and at 68 I doubt that will happen...I wouldn't be able to breath cause of copd. LOL
    Jim

    Intel i7-2600@3.4Gz Geforce 560ti-1GB Graphic accelerator, windows 7 Premium 12GB memory

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    JL_JL

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    Temperature can be dealt with, if you want video to edit in PD then you better generate some pressure in that warm jacket! Hard drives are not air sealed as you might think, the air pressure inside the drive is maintained by a small hole which communicates with the air pressure outside. If a drive is used at too high an altitude, the air pressure and density drop and becomes too thin to support the heads at their proper operating height. Keep in mind the heads float a few nanometers above the disk surface. If the heads get too close to the disk, the risk of head crash and disk failure will result.

    Jeff
    bolda

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    It's actually lower atmospheric pressure at higher altitudes, not lower temperature, that may cause a hard disk failure or damage. It's because standard hard disk designs rely on flying head air lift...
    James1

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    Hi,
    Ok what if your camcorder is SdHC card or internal memory...no effect?
    Jim

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    Visit GranPapa64's channel for your YouTube experience of the day!
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    bolda

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    I see now JL_JL explained the altitude issue before me; somehow, I didn't see the post yesterday.

    Anyway, sure, solid state technlogies (I mean chips, or semiconductor memories, whatever name) are not sensitive to atmospheric pressure changes or, relatively speaking, mechanical shocks...
    GerryV

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    Hey Guys,

    Thanx for all the feedback and suggestions, even on the unrelated altitude topic .
    Just to let you know that after converting all 28Mbps 1080p50 video clips from the TM900 to L4.1 1080p50 (unofficial) @ 15 Mbps, PD (still 1424c) was able to finish producing the movie completely! There were quite some video freezes in the final result though, about 15. Peculiar difference is that where with the original footage the freezes were always at the beginning of a clip and lasted the entire clip, now the freezes are also in the middle of clips.
    I believe PD has some bugs that the bigger the project, the more they occur. Probably memory related, processes writing outside of their buffers, whatever. So until fixed, I'll just follow the experts' advice and split up my projects in max 20 minute parts.

    When I finally have my movie produced without error, I'll try the original project with the 1703 patch (unless I already run into the same problems on the 20 minute parts).

    So CyberLink, 3 bug reports:
    1) On big projects with 1080p50@28Mbps source material, PowerDirector freezes at undeterministic moments; freeze here means: the program has not crashed, is still responsive on its UI, but rendering has stopped and there is no way to get it to resume.
    2) On big projects with 1080p50 source material (any bitrate), PowerDirector produces results with some parts (undeterministic) of video frozen.
    3) At transitions between SVRT and Rendering (CPU rendering at least), artifacts are introduced. On VLC, the artifacts manifest themselves as black frames.
    GerryV

    Newbie

    Joined: 14/03/2012 02:30:39
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    By the way, perhaps also interesting for somebody wanting to investigate further:
    1) When doing Intelligent SVRT with the Handbrake-converted clips, it took hours to analyse and came back with more than a hundred profiles, all the same: AVC 1920x1080/50p (28 Mbps) with 25.500 Kbps video bitrate. I chose my custom profile instead.
    2) PD stores a lot of info about precache and shadow files in the registry. So to start producing with a clean slate, deleting files may not be enough. According to CyberLink (link buried somewhere in the forum, search for RichVideo) the process RichVideo enables PD to reuse things determined while authoring during the production, to decrease production time.
    3) The option to enable/disable RichVideo is not there in the GUI (shadow files is something else apparently). But there is a registry setting for it (like there also is for shadow files).
    Cheers.
    GerryV

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    SVRT tests with new patch 1703:
    Where with 1424c I used to get a number of black frames just *before* a transition, now with 1703 I get a short freeze of the video right *after* the transition. I was able to reproduce the artifact with two clips, each one trimmed (beginning and end cut off), and a transition between them. Two full clips with a transition between them renders fine.

    I am also able to confirm what Peter100 writes here: http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/15/20483.page. I frame-stepped through the old black frames and the new freeze with VLC. Framestepping through the sequence:
    - The black frames produced with 1424c show as black frames
    - The freeze produced with 1703 shows as a mangled sequence of frames: suppose the right order is 0123456789, then frames are in order 0516273849, after which the rest continues correctly.

    Tried DynamicGOP=1, no luck.
    CubbyHouseFilms

    Senior Contributor

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    Hi Gerry

    Thanks for the follow up

    The members here do not work for Cyberlink nor do Cyberlink monitor this forum.

    We are all volunteer video editors - like yourself - sharing information and helping each other out due to the (sometimes, well almost) inadequate support from Cyberlink.

    Your great suggestions should be directed to Cyberlink Technical Support:

    http://www.cyberlink.com/prog/support/cs/contact-support.jsp

    Happy editing

    Happing editing

    Best Regards

    Neil
    CubbyHouseFilms

    My Youtube Channel
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    jerrys

    Senior Contributor

    Joined: 10/02/2010 18:36:34
    Messages: 967
    Location: New Britain, CT, USA (between New York and Boston)
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    JAMES1 wrote:Hi,
    I am going to show my ignorance why would a video camera fail at a certain altitude? I
    Jim

    He's going to be in the Andes -- the problem is the llama spit.

    Jerry Schwartz
    [WWW]
     
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