The frames count does not match the soundfile's

Tomas E

Member Joined: Nov 07, 2019 11:51 Messages: 81 Offline

Solved by

Oct 13, 2021 16:56

This is about making a music video from a precut.

After importing an audio file into PowerDirector with the same minutes, seconds and frames as the original, the soundfile becomes somewhat longer in PD, in this case 9 frames. This means that the audio files is out of sync.

1. I make a recording with video and audio simultaneously.

2. I import the movie into Digital Performer (known as DP instead of PD).

3. Since I start the camera recording first I need to move the soundfile in DP later in time afterwards, so that the audio files will be syncronized. This is done by also importing the movie audio into DP and align the audio files by simply dragging the DP audio file later in time, looking and listening until they match.

4. When I've found the take I want to use I make a new audio file from - in this case - 00:10:15:05 to 00:13:12:15. This file is in other words 00:03:07:10 long.

5. I make a precut with exactly the same frametime values as the soundfile.

In position: 00:10:15:05

Out position: 00:13:12:15

Duration: 00:03:07:10

6. I drag the precut into a track.

7. I drag the imported audio file into an audio track and there it is, but it has the duration 00:03:07:19.

If I start playback the audio file in the video is suddenly clearly out of sync with the imported DP audio file (Broadcast Wave). The imported audio is played back earlier than in the movie so you'll hear an echo effect. One could guess that moving the precut nine frames earlier in time would solve the issue but it doesn't. Then it's much more out of sync but in the opposite direction.

Since I move the audio file manually before exporting the selected portion of it, it's natural that it won't be a hundred percent accurate. But it should be at least as accurate in timing as it is in Digital Performer, that is no discrepancy should be audible.

This is not an issue if I after lining them up in Digital Performer make an audio file from beginning to end. Then they match exactly in PowerDirector too. But then I have to make the selection of the specific take within PD, which means more work since it's not optimized primarily for audio.

Therefore I have to try different in and out positions until I find the right ones. It's only a few frames backwards or forwards, but as you can understand a bit annoying. As said the lengths are identical, but in the previous project I took a close look at the movie start time in DP (or if it was the end time, can't remember now) and I could see that the frame displayed there was not the same frame as the one displayed in the precut. In the current project I'm not able to see any difference.

I've got the latest patch by the way, 19.0.3226.2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 13. 2021 16:58

PowerDirector 19 Ultimate, Windows 10
Processor: Intel Core i7-8700 CPU @ 3.20GHz
32 GB RAM

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Oct 13, 2021 17:47

To follow along, one would probably have to share a few files and a pds project. Through the years, PD is not known for being highly frame accurate. Several items could be at play though. What timecode does DP use being primarily an audio editor, audio typically in ms not frames, how does it generate SMPTE. To do this, does it use dropped frame timecode or not, are you consistent in PD. Source video being a fixed framerate is probably a must for something like this, is your source video a fixed framerate?

Instead of manually aligning, have you tried to sync by audio in PD and then trim as desired?

Jeff

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 13. 2021 17:49

Tomas E

Member Joined: Nov 07, 2019 11:51 Messages: 81 Offline

Oct 14, 2021 10:22

Quote To follow along, one would probably have to share a few files and a pds project. Through the years, PD is not known for being highly frame accurate. Several items could be at play though. What timecode does DP use being primarily an audio editor, audio typically in ms not frames, how does it generate SMPTE. To do this, does it use dropped frame timecode or not, are you consistent in PD. Source video being a fixed framerate is probably a must for something like this, is your source video a fixed framerate?

Instead of manually aligning, have you tried to sync by audio in PD and then trim as desired?

Jeff

Sync by audio seems to be a good option, didn't know about it. I'll give it a try. Thanks!

Yes, I've set DP to frame time code. Since you can import videos it's also possible to do this. I'd say DP is very good in this matter, people use it for film scoring.

Okay, PD is not very frame accurate. That could be the reason of course. Is PD 365 more accurate in this matter? Maybe a trial version of that one could help.

It's too much of a drag and time consuming I think to share such large files. Furthermore I don't feel like sharing my expletives which pop up now and then during unsuccessful recordings, haha! PowerDirector 19 Ultimate, Windows 10
Processor: Intel Core i7-8700 CPU @ 3.20GHz
32 GB RAM

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Oct 14, 2021 12:29

Quote Yes, I've set DP to frame time code. Since you can import videos it's also possible to do this. I'd say DP is very good in this matter, people use it for film scoring.

What it's doing is important, I'm sure it's good as you say. I ask because for a clip at ~03:07 duration, drop frame timecode differs by about 8 frames at NTSC 60fps, which is about your magnitude of difference you showed. Don't know if you are 60fps as you never said. Additionally, what timecode PD's Precut uses has been an unknown as well since “;” used in the in/out timecode specification which implies dropped frame timecode. It does not change to “:” with timeline setting. This causes a difference when trying to cut a specific duration too and move it to the timeline when timeline is set to drop or not drop frame timecode. I’d simply use split in the timeline instead of Precut since split obeys timeline timecode specification so you know exactly what you have.

I really think the intended use for Precut was to carve up a long recoding to close duration chunks for scenes and then do final cuts in timeline.

Jeff

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 14. 2021 12:44

Tomas E

Member Joined: Nov 07, 2019 11:51 Messages: 81 Offline

Oct 14, 2021 13:14

Quote

What it's doing is important, I'm sure it's good as you say. I ask because for a clip at ~03:07 duration, drop frame timecode differs by about 8 frames at NTSC 60fps, which is about your magnitude of difference you showed. Don't know if you are 60fps as you never said. Additionally, what timecode PD's Precut uses has been an unknown as well since “;” used in the in/out timecode specification which implies dropped frame timecode. It does not change to “:” with timeline setting. This causes a difference when trying to cut a specific duration too and move it to the timeline when timeline is set to drop or not drop frame timecode. I’d simply use split in the timeline instead of Precut since split obeys timeline timecode specification so you know exactly what you have.

I really think the intended use for Precut was to carve up a long recoding to close duration chunks for scenes and then do final cuts in timeline.

Jeff

I'm sorry, I forgot about the frame rate. It's set to 50 FPS (PAL) drop frame in PowerDirector. Digital Performer sets it to 25 FPS. This is how it's explained in the DP user manual.

"Files at HD frame rates of 50, 59.94 (drop & non-drop), and 60 (drop & non-drop) can also be imported, but the frame rate is set to the corresponding half rate."

The MOTU Tech Support should be able to clarify if it's drop or non-drop but I'd guess it's drop frame since that's much more common these days.

So what you're saying is that since the Precut setting has for instance 00:05:10:25 it means non drop frame and not drop frame,
and 00;05;10;25 means drop frame? And that this causes a malfunction in the timing since it's always set to non drop frame in the timelines of both the precut and the preview window regardless of the preferences setting? If so I must say I'm really starting to have my doubts about the competence of the programmers.

Yes, I've been using the split timeline option until recently when I came to think of this method as easier, but it may not be so after all. PowerDirector 19 Ultimate, Windows 10
Processor: Intel Core i7-8700 CPU @ 3.20GHz
32 GB RAM

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Oct 14, 2021 15:11

Quote I'm sorry, I forgot about the frame rate. It's set to 50 FPS (PAL) drop frame in PowerDirector. Digital Performer sets it to 25 FPS. This is how it's explained in the DP user manual.

"Files at HD frame rates of 50, 59.94 (drop & non-drop), and 60 (drop & non-drop) can also be imported, but the frame rate is set to the corresponding half rate."

The MOTU Tech Support should be able to clarify if it's drop or non-drop but I'd guess it's drop frame since that's much more common these days.

So what you're saying is that since the Precut setting has for instance 00:05:10:25 it means non drop frame and not drop frame,
and 00;05;10;25 means drop frame? And that this causes a malfunction in the timing since it's always set to non drop frame in the timelines of both the precut and the preview window regardless of the preferences setting? If so I must say I'm really starting to have my doubts about the competence of the programmers.

Yes, I've been using the split timeline option until recently when I came to think of this method as easier, but it may not be so after all.

No such thing as 50 FPS (PAL) drop frame as you note in PD nor in general.

In PD timeline timecode as well as fairly general, ":" separation is non drop frame timecode, while ";" is for drop frame timecode.

Jeff

Tomas E

Member Joined: Nov 07, 2019 11:51 Messages: 81 Offline

Oct 14, 2021 15:16

I guess that I have to recalculate the start and end frames since I've got 25 fps in DP and 50 fps in PD. All frames in between should not be an issue. PowerDirector 19 Ultimate, Windows 10
Processor: Intel Core i7-8700 CPU @ 3.20GHz
32 GB RAM

Tomas E

Member Joined: Nov 07, 2019 11:51 Messages: 81 Offline

Oct 14, 2021 15:19

Quote

No such thing as 50 FPS (PAL) drop frame as you note in PD nor in general.

In PD timeline timecode as well as fairly general, ":" separation is non drop frame timecode, while ";" is for drop frame timecode.

Jeff

Thanks! PowerDirector 19 Ultimate, Windows 10
Processor: Intel Core i7-8700 CPU @ 3.20GHz
32 GB RAM

Tomas E

Member Joined: Nov 07, 2019 11:51 Messages: 81 Offline

Oct 14, 2021 15:33

Quote I guess that I have to recalculate the start and end frames since I've got 25 fps in DP and 50 fps in PD. All frames in between should not be an issue.

Yes that's it! If the starting framecount in DP is 12 I just adjust it to 24 in PD. Likewise if the ending framecount is 19 I make it 38 in PD. Then, when inserting the audio file in the timeline it has the same frame lenght as the precut, and is perfectly syncronized.

PowerDirector 19 Ultimate, Windows 10
Processor: Intel Core i7-8700 CPU @ 3.20GHz
32 GB RAM

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Oct 14, 2021 16:06

Quote Yes that's it! If the starting framecount in DP is 12 I just adjust it to 24 in PD. Likewise if the ending framecount is 19 I make it 38 in PD. Then, when inserting the audio file in the timeline it has the same frame lenght as the precut, and is perfectly syncronized.

As indicated in my initial post, are you consistent in PD with timecode. One can also change the timeline to 25fps to match your DP timecode and then do no frame adjustment. When producing in PD, go to 50fps if that's what your source video is.

Jeff

Tomas E

Member Joined: Nov 07, 2019 11:51 Messages: 81 Offline

Oct 15, 2021 16:45

Quote

As indicated in my initial post, are you consistent in PD with timecode. One can also change the timeline to 25fps to match your DP timecode and then do no frame adjustment. When producing in PD, go to 50fps if that's what your source video is.

Jeff

Yes, the source video is at 50 fps.

In the preferences Timecode is set to drop frame "Yes" and cannot be changed.

Aha, one can change the timeline regardless of the framerate in the source video. Didn't know about that. Thanks. PowerDirector 19 Ultimate, Windows 10
Processor: Intel Core i7-8700 CPU @ 3.20GHz
32 GB RAM

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Oct 15, 2021 18:37

Quote In the preferences Timecode is set to drop frame "Yes" and cannot be changed.

As I wrote prior in this thread, there is no such thing as 50 FPS (PAL) with drop frame timecode. Hence the dimmed field setting in PD and unchangeable as it's not applicable. Drop frame timecode is relevant for NTSC.

Jeff