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editing lots of syched tracks?
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chrisp [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jul 18, 2017 11:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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i shot several takes of my band with 4 cameras. we were playing to the recording of a song so each take should be pretty close in terms of time. what i have is about 12 tracks worth of video for one song. i would like to edit them together so that i use the best parts of each video track.

now i know there is that multicam. but i don't have 4 great cameras from any one take. and if i try and use mutiple takes multicam has trouble synching based on audio.

if this was audio only (i'm an audio guy) i would line the audio up, slice where i wanted edits and be able to quickly audition any of the other takes. i run reaper which does a great job of this. but it's probalby a feature in many pro audio DAWS like protools. basically i set up a loop over the area i'm editing and then swap in and audition differnt bit of audio. i can even drag and drop the edit points and effect all clips at the time.

so how does power director handle this stuff? the only way i see is extremely slow and tedius.
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5938 Offline
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You didn't mention which older version of PD you're working with, but Audio Analysis (syncing by audio) is only one of the ways to line up clips in the MultiCam Designer.

If your cameras recorded with a timecode or they all had reasonably syncronized clocks, there are MCD sync options for those specific situations.



You can also sync them manually br dragging the starting point of each clip left/right relative to the others, or find the same point on each clip then right-click and use Set Marker then sync by Markers on Clips.

All of this info is in the Help file which can be accessed by clicking the "?" button at the top right of the MCD window.
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chrisp [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jul 18, 2017 11:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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i think the only option for me is audio. version 17. the video is from 3 phones and a digital SLR. none of the other methods work. manually doing it is ok on the main timeline but in

phone 1: 60 fps
phone 2: 29.85 fps
phone 3: 30fps
DSLR: 29.97 fps

i was reading about variable frame rates and the trouble editors can have with that....audio going out or sync. the solution seems to be trancoding them all to somthing like 30fps. not sure. probably for another post.

but back to editing lots of tracks that are supposed to be in sync. what i figured out is i can use the multicam and sync each take since i only have 4 cams. import that on the timeline for each take. line them up with the song. then edit from there. multicam allows me to cut down on my sync work by 1/4th. and hopefull the edits in multicam reduce edits on the main timeline. that's the fastest way i have figured out. : )

the problem with me is i've been using a much faster system for comping in audio for over 10 years. ha. i really think some of the video editors could learn something by looking at pro DAWs.
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5938 Offline
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Quote i think the only option for me is audio. version 17. the video is from 3 phones and a digital SLR. none of the other methods work.

The screenshot was from PD14, while in the current version (PD19) they've dropped the first 2 options. I don't know why you say using clip markers doesn't work, as that's the way I'd do it with your clips.

Quote i was reading about variable frame rates and the trouble editors can have with that....audio going out or sync. the solution seems to be trancoding them all to somthing like 30fps. not sure. probably for another post.

That can sometimes be an issue with very long videos (like 20+ min) but there shouldn't be anything noticeable in shorter projects. To have the most accurate editing experience it's best to set your project's frame rate to the highest fps clip you're working with, so 60fps in this case.

Quote but back to editing lots of tracks that are supposed to be in sync. what i figured out is i can use the multicam and sync each take since i only have 4 cams. import that on the timeline for each take. line them up with the song. then edit from there. multicam allows me to cut down on my sync work by 1/4th. and hopefull the edits in multicam reduce edits on the main timeline. that's the fastest way i have figured out. : )

You have a complex situation that will requires some combination of forethought and experimentation. It's up to you to decide whether to load clips from all 4 cams from the same take into the MCD at once, or to take the best shots from a single cam from up to 4 takes.

Either way you'll have a single "intermediate greatest shots" clip, and at some point you'll need to compare it with the other intermediate segments to get your final version. You may find it helpful to produce each MCD intermediate output so you'll be able to use the MCD with those clips to get your final video.
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chrisp [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jul 18, 2017 11:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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Quote

The screenshot was from PD14, while in the current version (PD19) they've dropped the first 2 options. I don't know why you say using clip markers doesn't work, as that's the way I'd do it with your clips.


i didn't know what they were until just now. ha. but they are not a great solution as far as i can see. they don't import into multicam right? so you create them in there. but multicam has no audio to reference which makes things hard with a music video. you can always hear the drummer hit the snare but you can't see it in all cams. i can see how these markers would help on the main timeline.


Quote
That can sometimes be an issue with very long videos (like 20+ min) but there shouldn't be anything noticeable in shorter projects. To have the most accurate editing experience it's best to set your project's frame rate to the highest fps clip you're working with, so 60fps in this case.


well something is up. i changed to 60fps and nothing changed. audio goes out of sync with video in multicam. usually for the same clip every time. tends to be the 60 fps one. but in the clip preview window it looks fine. this is only maybe 10 minutes at longest.


Quote
You have a complex situation that will requires some combination of forethought and experimentation. It's up to you to decide whether to load clips from all 4 cams from the same take into the MCD at once, or to take the best shots from a single cam from up to 4 takes.

Either way you'll have a single "intermediate greatest shots" clip, and at some point you'll need to compare it with the other intermediate segments to get your final version. You may find it helpful to produce each MCD intermediate output so you'll be able to use the MCD with those clips to get your final video.


so it' looks like i'll have to put all video on main timeline and edit. i've seen some videos on this but no one is trying to edit 12 tracks of video. maybe there is a method i haven't seen yet? besides chopping things up and turning on and off track visability?

thx
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5938 Offline
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Quote i didn't know what they were until just now. ha. but they are not a great solution as far as i can see. they don't import into multicam right? so you create them in there. but multicam has no audio to reference which makes things hard with a music video. you can always hear the drummer hit the snare but you can't see it in all cams. i can see how these markers would help on the main timeline.

Right, you have to create the markers directly in the MCD tool, but without consistent video cues you may not be able to sync tracks there.

In that case (and if you want to do the main work in the MCD), you can trim each take individually on the timeline so that the start of the song is exactly (say) 1 sec from the start of the clip, then produce each clip to the final output profile.

Every clip will now be perfectly in sync and you can import them into the MCD without syncing and just concentrate on pulling the best shot for each scene.

Quote well something is up. i changed to 60fps and nothing changed. audio goes out of sync with video in multicam. usually for the same clip every time. tends to be the 60 fps one. but in the clip preview window it looks fine. this is only maybe 10 minutes at longest.

Where are you seeing the out-of-sync issue? In the finished project or on the main timeline? You may need to reduce the preview quality and/or use shadow files to keep the preview from lagging while PD processes all those clips at once.

Quote so it' looks like i'll have to put all video on main timeline and edit. i've seen some videos on this but no one is trying to edit 12 tracks of video. maybe there is a method i haven't seen yet? besides chopping things up and turning on and off track visability?

PD can handle 99 tracks and there are several ways to deal with content on multiple tracks. One way is to cut the appropriate section and move it to the bottom-most track so it will play "in front of/on top of" all the other clips; another way is to keep all tracks enabled but with the opacity set to 0 everywhere except for the specific section you want to show.

As inferred above, you may find that lowering the opacity is easier than disabling a track because you can set it to a low level on various tracks and see a hint of the content in the non-chosen track if that's helpful.

You can also apply masks on the unwanted tracks, or make a "TV wall" from the PiP Designer with each track showing in a small window laid out in a grid so you can see all content at once.
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chrisp [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jul 18, 2017 11:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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thx.
one thing i should clarify. it's not that the clips are going out of sync with each other. it's that the audio is going out of synch with the video in the same clip. and only in multicam and the export from multicam.

i think i get what you are saying about editing multiple video tracks.... and i think that works when you have maybe 4 track and you kind of know what's on them in different places. in a rapid edit music video style with 12 tracks it really ends up being tons of work. i keep looking online for an example of someone doing this and find none. haha.

i will try the opasity thing.

multicam only seems to take full video from the media window. not edited (synced) clips. i'll check again.

i am using shadow files. and low res preview. hm...

i guess the thing is i know how to do this.....but i can't believe how slow it will be.

this is what i'm used to: https://youtu.be/ilX2FOyu_Ts?t=372

typically i set up a loop to play over the section i'm comping. then as it plays i audition the differnt takes in real time. it's very easy to select differnt bits of audio from even 20 takes and hear it in real time (see how the edits work). someone is probalby doing this with video. you can move the edit points by dragging. basically put together a comp with bits from 20 takes in no time. i could finish this music video in about an hour instead of 20. : )
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chrisp [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Jul 18, 2017 11:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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cool update....

i posted my DAW forum asking if there was a video editor that behaved like a daw. turns out reaper (my daw) does this! i'm now following my audio workflow with video. so much better. what a great find. so far so good. cross fingers.
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