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Frame rate, 4K video and iPhone 11
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mymatesre [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Sep 15, 2020 00:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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Sorry, so much to learn - first day with this.

Can someone send me either a video or website or post that explains how to set the correct frame rate before editing and also how to export with correct frame rate. I think I know the locations (Settings, General), but I don't see 4K listed and I also don't see PAL listed. (With PAL, I am in Australia but all i want to do is upload to Youtube in 4K so is PAL even necessary?)
1) I am using an iPhone 11 filming in 4K, 60fps
2) I also occasionally film in 1080p at 60fps so would need the numbers for that as well.

Thanks
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tomasc [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 25, 2011 12:33 Messages: 5319 Offline
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The specification for the iPhone11 main and selfie camera is here. Those frame rates are nominal. The IPhone records video at variable frame rates, not a constant one. PAL frame rates of 25 and 50 have never been included on any iPhone that I can remember.

You will have problems in editing the videos from the iPhone if you insist on audio lip sync in an extended recording. It is fine to produce as is with music in the background or if it is a short clip. A converter like HandBrake can be useful.
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mymatesre [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Sep 15, 2020 00:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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Quote The specification for the iPhone11 main and selfie camera is here. Those frame rates are nominal. The IPhone records video at variable frame rates, not a constant one. PAL frame rates of 25 and 50 have never been included on any iPhone that I can remember.

You will have problems in editing the videos from the iPhone if you insist on audio lip sync in an extended recording. It is fine to produce as is with music in the background or if it is a short clip. A converter like HandBrake can be useful.


Thanks Tomas - did you have a link to the specs?
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tomasc [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 25, 2011 12:33 Messages: 5319 Offline
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Sorry. Left out the link to the iPhone11 spec. Here it is: https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_iphone_11-9848.php .
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mymatesre [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Sep 15, 2020 00:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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Sorry I think we misunderstood each other. What I need is how to change the settings on PD so that it edits my 4K footage and also exports it in 4K as well so that it is set up correctly. Even if I use Handbrake I assume the footage will export in 4K so how can I make sure when I import this on PD that it recognizes the 4K and also 60fps? (And exports once I am done editing)
Thanks in advance
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Quote Sorry, so much to learn - first day with this.

Can someone send me either a video or website or post that explains how to set the correct frame rate before editing and also how to export with correct frame rate. I think I know the locations (Settings, General), but I don't see 4K listed and I also don't see PAL listed. (With PAL, I am in Australia but all i want to do is upload to Youtube in 4K so is PAL even necessary?)
1) I am using an iPhone 11 filming in 4K, 60fps
2) I also occasionally film in 1080p at 60fps so would need the numbers for that as well.

Thanks

There is no need to select PAL anymore. Australia ended analog transmissions in 2013, and that's when PAL died. There is no "PAL" encoding in Digital TV.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_terrestrial_television_in_Australia

We are living a digital TV world, where the native LCD panels are at 60Hz minimum. Select a 60Hz profile without worries.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Sep 15. 2020 13:00

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mymatesre [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Sep 15, 2020 00:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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Quote

There is no need to select PAL anymore. Australia ended analog transmissions in 2013, and that's when PAL died. There is no "PAL" encoding in Digital TV.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_terrestrial_television_in_Australia

We are living a digital TV world, where the native LCD panels are at 60Hz minimum. Select a 60Hz profile without worries.


thanks - I didn't think nstc or pal mattered as I'm just uploading to YouTube. My real question is how to import 4K video from my phone so that the frame rate of 60fps and also 4K match the project settings as I can't see 4K as an option when setting the prefs in the project. I then also want to export the same, 60fps and 4K so I can upload to YouTube. Any suggestions as I know this must be a super common thing when so many people are shooting 4k. Thanks
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tomasc [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 25, 2011 12:33 Messages: 5319 Offline
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Quote thanks - I didn't think nstc or pal mattered as I'm just uploading to YouTube. My real question is how to import 4K video from my phone so that the frame rate of 60fps and also 4K match the project settings as I can't see 4K as an option when setting the prefs in the project. I then also want to export the same, 60fps and 4K so I can upload to YouTube. Any suggestions as I know this must be a super common thing when so many people are shooting 4k. Thanks

Look for a gear button located on the top left of the Edit page. Click to open it. You can change the settings in Preferences/General/Timeline frame rate. Change it via the drop down arrow to 60 fps(ntsc) and Use drop frame timecode Yes. Click OK.

Place any video clip on the timeline. Go to the Produce page. You should now see that the Country is now defaulted to NTSC. The frame rates should show up as 30/60/120 where needed instead of 25/50 in the Profile name settings. 4K is available via the drop down arrow in many file format/ Profile name and using the scroll bars to go to the bottom and then select it.

There is a Profile Analyzer in the Produce page should you decide to try it and use it. I see no point with it for the iPhone11 footage but that is up to you. It may help to make a decision for you.

Hope this helps...

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Sep 15. 2020 15:46

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mymatesre [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Sep 15, 2020 00:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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Quote

Look for a gear button located on the top left of the Edit page. Click to open it. You can change the settings in Preferences/General/Timeline frame rate. Change it via the drop down arrow to 60 fps(ntsc) and Use drop frame timecode Yes. Click OK.

Place any video clip on the timeline. Go to the Produce page. You should now see that the Country is now defaulted to NTSC. The frame rates should show up as 30/60/120 where needed instead of 25/50 in the Profile name settings. 4K is available via the drop down arrow in many file format/ Profile name and using the scroll bars to go to the bottom and then select it.

There is a Profile Analyzer in the Produce page should you decide to try it and use it. I see no point with it for the iPhone11 footage but that is up to you. It may help to make a decision for you.

Hope this helps...


thanks - I've done all that before but the issue when I first go to General Settings is that there is no option for 4K. This is my issue - why can't I import as 4K? I paid for the Director Suite 365 so it's the top of the line but can't change it to 4K.
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tomasc [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 25, 2011 12:33 Messages: 5319 Offline
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There are no settings needed for importing 4K videos. You did not state in the beginning post that you are unable to import 4K video files from the iPhone11 which are .mov files. This also means that you can’t import any video files that are not 4K from that iPhone.

You need to install Apple QuickTime on your pc to fix this issue. Here is a link: https://support.apple.com/kb/DL837?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US . This is one way to fix the issue. Accept the installation without the web browser plug -in. You can also do a custom install to install only the codecs so that you can import those .mov files from your iPhone11.

This is not as good as converting those .mov files to .mp4 files first with HandBrake which can also fix the audio lip sync issue mentioned earlier. I would install the QuickTime first and then only if you dislike the audio issue use the HandBrake converter. This will save you much time.
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5450 Offline
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tomasc answered while I was typing so go with what he wrote!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Sep 15. 2020 21:37

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mymatesre [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Sep 15, 2020 00:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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Quote There are no settings needed for importing 4K videos. You did not state in the beginning post that you are unable to import 4K video files from the iPhone11 which are .mov files. This also means that you can’t import any video files that are not 4K from that iPhone.

You need to install Apple QuickTime on your pc to fix this issue. Here is a link: https://support.apple.com/kb/DL837?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US . This is one way to fix the issue. Accept the installation without the web browser plug -in. You can also do a custom install to install only the codecs so that you can import those .mov files from your iPhone11.

This is not as good as converting those .mov files to .mp4 files first with HandBrake which can also fix the audio lip sync issue mentioned earlier. I would install the QuickTime first and then only if you dislike the audio issue use the HandBrake converter. This will save you much time.


thanks for your advice but I still think you are misunderstanding. I have no problem importing any file into PD from my phone.
Maybe my question is misleading as I have been using DaVinci and when I import assets there I need to change FPS (frames per second) and resolution otherwise the FPS will be off as well as the resolution. I want to ensure these are correct in my PD project. When I import them in I do not see 4K as an option. All I want to do is make sure the settings are set correctly as otherwise I might be editing it in HD quality. Hope that clarifies. In summary, I have 4k footage, I want to import and edit in 4K, the general settings on PD do not give me the option of a 4K setting and I also want to ensure the settings are correct when I export or produce as there are a few options. I do appreciate your attempt to help but don't worry if you aren't able to answer as perhaps someone else would know - thanks.
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5450 Offline
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As tomasc said, there are no input settings for clips at all. PD imports them exactly as they are, and you can't change that even if you wanted to.

The only thing you can do is to enable shadow files, which are lower resolution clips that PD uses when editing so that your preview playback is smooth. The source clips are always used for producing, so the resolution you chose for shadow files is irrelevant from a final video perspective.

It's a good idea to match your project's frame rate to the highest fps of your source clips, so in your case you'd want it to be 60fps on the General tab.

When you're ready to produce, the easiest way to get the same quality as your source clips is to click on Profile Analyzer on the Produce page. It should generate a Best Matched Profile that you can save as a custom profile so you can use it over and over.

You can also pick one of the default AVC/HEVC 4K 30p profiles and click on the + icon to create a custom version. None of the default profiles are 4K 60p so you'll have to create one yourself.

YouTube/optodata


DS365 | Win10 Pro | Ryzen 9 3950X | RTX 2070 | 32GB RAM | 10TB SSDs | 5K+4K HDR monitors

Canon Vixia GX10 (4K 60p) | HF G30 (HD 60p) | Yi Action+ 4K | 360Fly 4K 360°
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mymatesre [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Sep 15, 2020 00:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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Quote As tomasc said, there are no input settings for clips at all. PD imports them exactly as they are, and you can't change that even if you wanted to.

The only thing you can do is to enable shadow files, which are lower resolution clips that PD uses when editing so that your preview playback is smooth. The source clips are always used for producing, so the resolution you chose for shadow files is irrelevant from a final video perspective.

It's a good idea to match your project's frame rate to the highest fps of your source clips, so in your case you'd want it to be 60fps on the General tab.

When you're ready to produce, the easiest way to get the same quality as your source clips is to click on Profile Analyzer on the Produce page. It should generate a Best Matched Profile that you can save as a custom profile so you can use it over and over.

You can also pick one of the default AVC/HEVC 4K 30p profiles and click on the + icon to create a custom version. None of the default profiles are 4K 60p so you'll have to create one yourself.


great - thanks for your help, at least now I know to stop looking
it's amazing PD is smart enough to match the correct frame rate and resolution upon import - oddly strange actually since higher level programs make you do it manually. Also seems odd you can change some resolutions in settings but not 4k, maybe this will come soon. I think to be safe I'll film in 1080p at 60fps to be safe and then once I get more familiar with the program I'll see if the 4K has any notiable increase in quality.
Thanks again & happy editing
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optodata
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: California, USA Joined: Sep 16, 2011 16:04 Messages: 5450 Offline
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Quote it's amazing PD is smart enough to match the correct frame rate and resolution upon import - oddly strange actually since higher level programs make you do it manually. Also seems odd you can change some resolutions in settings but not 4k, maybe this will come soon.

The only resolution-related settings I can think of are for shadow files, and again that only specifies what resolutions you want to work with in the editor if your PC isn't able to work with your native clips fluently. There's no point in having 4K shadow files if your computer can't work with 4K clips, so the resolutions will always be on the low side.

You should also plan to use Full HD or HD Preview Resolution for normal editing, as the Ultra HD setting normally requires lots of pre-rendering which greatly slows things down. I'd save that for times when you must see the full resolution for editing, and even then it's usually quicker to use the Range Select tool and produce just that section of the timeline.

Full HD preview resolution with 4K 60p clips will just about max out a powerful PC., and some edits may require a drop to HD to preview without lagging. All of this info is either in the Help pages or available here on the forum using the search feature.
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Davidk101
Member Private Message Location: Brisbane Australia Joined: Jun 24, 2020 02:38 Messages: 77 Offline
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A bit of history . .
Video settings owe much to early movie practice; in particular, frame rate. Way back then (nearly 100 years ago when movies as we now know them were first getting going), with the use of vacuum tubes (aka valves) as the amplfiers with heaters to supply the electron source, extreme sensitivity to the powerline frequency was demonstable; thus the frame rate of 25 or 30 per second matching the power grid frequency was the way a vertical lock was achieved. National standards defined this and generations of product implemented it. Fast forward to early TV, and this is still aplicable: losing lock with the power frequency and the picture rolled up or down. With transistors and integrated circuit electronics the relevance of the powerline frequency lock has gone, but the standard remains.

Frame rates still matter . .
As has been mentioned the day of analog has passed - in everything but frame rate. Every national standards and broadcast authority still adheres to the old definitions of frame rate for the picture, even tho now it's digital. Since the real world is always analog, consider a digital transmission as just a superfast morse key - a powerfull transmitter which is on or off, rather than variations of amplitude and frequency. The elements of frames, picture quality and sound are encoded in the bursts of energy that are the on's and off's.

Why do phone cameras vary frame rates . .
Cameras on mobile phones are an interesting beast - the sensor is physically small, the lens likewise and the focal length is only about 1-1.5. Camera nerds would know what that means, but the normal F-stop is 8. Zooming etc is always by electronic means, which means that the sensor is always supplying the same quality of image, it's just that the use may be all of it, or just a small part of it. And that explains why a high-res sensor (many mega pixels) is needed for those features: otherwise, zooming would pixelate out quickly.

Enter low light situations for taking photos or video: evenings, or inside buildings. To get enough light on the sensor to deliver a usable image, you could either open the aperture of the lens - make it physically larger by dialling down the focal length (what a specialist camera would do) or in this case since the phone lens cannot have it's aperature changed, the phone camera simply gathers more light on the sensor by slowing down the frame rate. The lower the light level, the lower the frame rate. And that shows in the average frame rate in the clip properties: numbers below 23 for a PAL country or 27 for an NTSC country will indicate a lot of the imagery in the clip was taken in what the phone thought of as low light situations. I've seen some frame rates as low as 16 on clips from phone cameras. Playing the recorded clip back on the same phone isn't a problem - it's designed to allow for the frame variations, but exporting the recording (copying from the saved file to another store) and using it there doesn't take the same playable compatibility with it. And thus those clips usually have problems playing in programs like video editors.

What to do . . .
Most video editors have difficulty managing source files which have frame rates which significantly vary from those specified in standards (PALor NTSC mostly, but SECAM also); the error messages vary but the bottom line has been that the editor crashes trying. Fixing the frame rate fixes the problem. I've seen comment that PD doesn't have this problem - credit the programmers for that. Altho, that may only be for FHD clips - since this seems to have arisen with 4K possible the problem does exist in PD for that sort of clip. Usually, it's lower frame rates rather than higher which cause the problem.

To fix/adjust the frame rate of a clip (meaning, make it the same as a standard), there are various programs available, a lot of them free. Examples: Handbrake, Format factory and others. Using these programs, open a source file, just specify the frame rate for a specific output file, give it a name and the program selectively inserts extra frames progressively in the image to match the desired result.
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mymatesre [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Sep 15, 2020 00:53 Messages: 14 Offline
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Quote A bit of history . .
Video settings owe much to early movie practice; in particular, frame rate. Way back then (nearly 100 years ago when movies as we now know them were first getting going), with the use of vacuum tubes (aka valves) as the amplfiers with heaters to supply the electron source, extreme sensitivity to the powerline frequency was demonstable; thus the frame rate of 25 or 30 per second matching the power grid frequency was the way a vertical lock was achieved. National standards defined this and generations of product implemented it. Fast forward to early TV, and this is still aplicable: losing lock with the power frequency and the picture rolled up or down. With transistors and integrated circuit electronics the relevance of the powerline frequency lock has gone, but the standard remains.

Frame rates still matter . .
As has been mentioned the day of analog has passed - in everything but frame rate. Every national standards and broadcast authority still adheres to the old definitions of frame rate for the picture, even tho now it's digital. Since the real world is always analog, consider a digital transmission as just a superfast morse key - a powerfull transmitter which is on or off, rather than variations of amplitude and frequency. The elements of frames, picture quality and sound are encoded in the bursts of energy that are the on's and off's.

Why do phone cameras vary frame rates . .
Cameras on mobile phones are an interesting beast - the sensor is physically small, the lens likewise and the focal length is only about 1-1.5. Camera nerds would know what that means, but the normal F-stop is 8. Zooming etc is always by electronic means, which means that the sensor is always supplying the same quality of image, it's just that the use may be all of it, or just a small part of it. And that explains why a high-res sensor (many mega pixels) is needed for those features: otherwise, zooming would pixelate out quickly.

Enter low light situations for taking photos or video: evenings, or inside buildings. To get enough light on the sensor to deliver a usable image, you could either open the aperture of the lens - make it physically larger by dialling down the focal length (what a specialist camera would do) or in this case since the phone lens cannot have it's aperature changed, the phone camera simply gathers more light on the sensor by slowing down the frame rate. The lower the light level, the lower the frame rate. And that shows in the average frame rate in the clip properties: numbers below 23 for a PAL country or 27 for an NTSC country will indicate a lot of the imagery in the clip was taken in what the phone thought of as low light situations. I've seen some frame rates as low as 16 on clips from phone cameras. Playing the recorded clip back on the same phone isn't a problem - it's designed to allow for the frame variations, but exporting the recording (copying from the saved file to another store) and using it there doesn't take the same playable compatibility with it. And thus those clips usually have problems playing in programs like video editors.

What to do . . .
Most video editors have difficulty managing source files which have frame rates which significantly vary from those specified in standards (PALor NTSC mostly, but SECAM also); the error messages vary but the bottom line has been that the editor crashes trying. Fixing the frame rate fixes the problem. I've seen comment that PD doesn't have this problem - credit the programmers for that. Altho, that may only be for FHD clips - since this seems to have arisen with 4K possible the problem does exist in PD for that sort of clip. Usually, it's lower frame rates rather than higher which cause the problem.

To fix/adjust the frame rate of a clip (meaning, make it the same as a standard), there are various programs available, a lot of them free. Examples: Handbrake, Format factory and others. Using these programs, open a source file, just specify the frame rate for a specific output file, give it a name and the program selectively inserts extra frames progressively in the image to match the desired result.


Thanks David - great background as it always helps to understand the reason why for what we are doing. Much appreciated.
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