Hi Tony, I happen to have a Canon HG20. Overall I like it and PD does not give me any issues with editing and rendering. Sometimes I have trouble importing the videos since PD will occasionally freeze. This problem is easily solvable since the Canon software handles this task well and imports faster than PD.

You also may want to consider the Canon without the hard disk (HF20 I think). It has exactly the same optics, but without the hard drive and is cheaper. My biggest problem is in low light situations, but I forgot to adjust the shutter settings. Q9300 2.5 GHz
4 GB Ram
Nvidia 9800 GT

Tony,

I want to know also... we're all interested in what choices others make.

Dafydd
[Moderator]

Hi Tony,

It's not everyone's 'cup of tea' but check out the Sanyo VPC HD1010 (or its new version the VPC HD2000)

Both Robert and I use the HD1010. Maybe after my next dive I'll end up using the HD2000??

HD1010 specs

Full HD@60i and 30fps, 720p@60 and 30fps, 640x480 @60 and 30fps, 448x336(strange, I know)@300fps gives 50secs of slo-mo, 320x240 @30fps.

10x optical zoom, 100x digital, integral flash, external mic and ear phones, manual white balance +presets

3.5 to 8 Mp stills, very small, pistol grip style, operated with one hand virtually all controls operated by one thumb. Fits in a pocket.

SDHC class 6 card media about 1hr 30min full HD on an 8Gb card, max 32Gb. Produces .MP4 files - I have no problems with PD7 editing. I love not having to capture, just copy files - it's great particularly in the field/on the boat with a laptop so to speak.

Docking/charging station designed to couple with hard drive library facilities and playback through HD TV (never tried it yet so....)

Inexpensive underwater casing. I have tried this.

Downsides :-
Small and therefore camera shake/panning speed needs watching (as it does with any HD)
Slowish focus, some people don't like the colour balance although it can be adjusted.
Not as high end as some models but here in the UK it's good value.
Bit of lens flare at some angles.
Gets hot with extensive use.


Have no experience of the 2000 but it has better performance specs.

Cheers
Adrian
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. (see below)
Confucius
AMD Phenom IIX6 1055T, win10, 5 internal drives, 7 usb drives, struggling power supply.

I would go for SR12 Sony a close competitor to Canon's HG 20. HG 20 uses tape which is a sad limitation of 1 hour> Also HG takes 1 hour to transfer video to PC.Sony is expensive but is worth it PC specs :
OS Windows 10.0 Pro
MB - AS rock Z77 extreme 11
Intel 3770K @ 4.0 Ghz OC
Gskill 32 GB RAM 1800 Mhz
6 TB HDD, SSD bootable
nVidia ASUS GTX 660 Ti
BenQ 22" LCD monitor 1920x1080

Babdi, the Canon HG20 has both a 30 GB hard disk and a SD card. In my case it transfers faster than real time. Q9300 2.5 GHz
4 GB Ram
Nvidia 9800 GT

Quote: a shortish list:

..
Panasonic HDC-HS9
...
...

I can comment on that one, since I have the SD-only version (HDC-SD9)
If you only want to shoot HD (which might be a good idea anyway, since you can always scale your source material down if you want to output SD or 720p) I can recommend that camera.

beware of the limitations of the latest HD cams in low-light situations. That really is not so good. The first pana HD camcorder (HDC-SD1) had bigger CCD's and therefore a better light senstivity - not recommendable because of other reasons, of course.

Panasonic's "Mega OIS" works extremely well, that was one of the main reasons I bought this camera and it paid off. If you put a little effort in holding the camera still, you can actually shoot smooth video from inside a car on a bumpy road. In the clip you see the car shaking and bouncing while the horizon and your subject outside the car are steady.

I do not know what the size of the HDD inside the HS9 is, but I really doubt whether the added size and weight are worth the while.
SD cards are exchangeable really easily, and the really big ones keep getting cheaper all the time. The internal harddisk seems more prone to failure, uses more space and battery power, etc...


If you are going to play back video directly from the camera to HDTV a lot (using HDMI) you might look for something else, since the HDMI output is hidden under the battery. This requires you to use the AC adaptor to use the HDMI connector... really silly!! However if you edit your video, you can't put it back on the camera for playback anyway.... so I'm not too sure if this is a problem for many users.

Sorry for the lapse. It is HV that uses tape. My apologies PC specs :
OS Windows 10.0 Pro
MB - AS rock Z77 extreme 11
Intel 3770K @ 4.0 Ghz OC
Gskill 32 GB RAM 1800 Mhz
6 TB HDD, SSD bootable
nVidia ASUS GTX 660 Ti
BenQ 22" LCD monitor 1920x1080

Hi again Tony.

I have the new Canon Vixia HF20 HD

What I love about it is that this model has 32 gigs of built-in, on-board flash memory and of course an SD slot too. Not that I can shoot that much video in one day.

This means there are no moving parts (except lense stuff). There's no hard drive. The less moving parts, the longer your battery lasts. Also, less things to break down. Hard drives are always the first thing to break.

So far, I'm very pleased with it.

I do have a few gripes though.

For one, the software for uploading really sucks. (being a software developer myself, I'm sensative to this).

For another, you can't stream from the camera. In other words, there's no "video capture" feature. You just have to dump all your digital recordings up to your hard drive at once.

Related to that, there's no "live feed." I can't hook up a monitor to the camera and view while it's recording. I would like to be able to hook up a monitor when the camera is up high on my tall crane/boom tripod, so I can see where it's pointing. But I can't.

Another thing I don't like is that there is no easy way to disconnect the camera from the USB. They plaster warnings all over the place telling you NOT to disconnect the camera once you connect it. But they don't tell the user HOW to disconnect it when he wants to! So you're left scratching your head wondering if you have to leave it connected forever.

Naturally I already knew that you can disconnect USB by using the "safely remove hardware" tray application to shut it down first, but a normal person wouldn't know that. I looked in the manual and nowhere does it teach the end user how to disconnec the camera from USB.

Well... that's my 2 cents.

CharlesF

Good write up, I've been seriously considering that camera or the Canon S10. For your tripod issue, does it work to use the composite out feature and go through a Video Game Jockey to display on a VGA panel? I do that with my current Canon.

Jeff

Quote: CharlesF

Good write up, I've been seriously considering that camera or the Canon S10. For your tripod issue, does it work to use the composite out feature and go through a Video Game Jockey to display on a VGA panel? I do that with my current Canon.

Jeff

That's a good idea, with the video game jockey to use a computer monitor instead of a TV. (It would be lighter to use an LCD monitor)

What I really wanted (to make life perfect) would be to hook it up via USB to my laptop and see the live feed on my laptop (which is easily portable). But that dog don't hunt.

Note: Just because I've been unsuccessful hooking up a monitor to the HF20, doesn't mean it's not possible. I never really tried very hard. I never tried the HDMI out because I don't have a cable. I only tried the component out.

But from what I read in the manual, it's only possible to get output from those jacks for a movie that's already been recorded and you're just playing it back. Not a live feed (which is what I need).

However, we've already established that their manual isn't all that good. So who knows?

Quote: CharlesF

Good write up, I've been seriously considering that camera or the Canon S10. For your tripod issue, does it work to use the composite out feature and go through a Video Game Jockey to display on a VGA panel? I do that with my current Canon.

Jeff

Well, I was wrong about hooking up a live feed. I got it to work using component out and a really old TV.

I think this was operator error. I tried to hook up my camera to my big screen plasma using the side component connections and couldn't get it to work. I'm thinking the TV itself probably wasn't configured correctly.

In any case, I have confirmed that I am able to get a live feed from the camrea while it is recording. The entire on-screen display is shown on the TV, so that's AWESOME for me!

Now I need to find a monitor that is widescreen and not too big to lug around.

Note though that the same hole is used for either headphones or component. The default setting is for headphones so you have to go into the menu and dig through to reset it to A/V.

Thank you all for your input. Between all the reviews I've read, people I've spoken to and all your ideas, my short list has become anything but that! Reading reviews is one thing, but hearing from people who actually use the things is another thing altogether.

Charles - yes - the Canon HF20 had already fund its way onto my extended short list... and it hasn't been eliminated from the equation so far. I appreciate you sharing your hands on experience. The HF S10 was also considered (similar specs), but there's a prohibitive (for moi) price difference between the two. In OZ the HF S10 costs about $800 more. Unfortunately, CHOICE hasn't updated reviews of camcorders since October '08, so neither of these was included.

James - the low light performance of the HF20/200 is an issue, but that seems to be the case with many comparable models. With my budget, everything is a compromise.

Anyway - every morning the list gets shorter... then grows again during the day, while I go round in circles reading about all the features I probably can't afford.

Team - I really do appreciate your thinking on this topic.

Cheers -

Tony Tread gently and you'll hear the daisies grow...

Well Tony, with your shrinking and growing list , I hope that a newer model does not come up when you "just" finished the selection, PC specs :
OS Windows 10.0 Pro
MB - AS rock Z77 extreme 11
Intel 3770K @ 4.0 Ghz OC
Gskill 32 GB RAM 1800 Mhz
6 TB HDD, SSD bootable
nVidia ASUS GTX 660 Ti
BenQ 22" LCD monitor 1920x1080

The HF S10 was also considered (similar specs)

If you are saying similar to the HF20 I'd look again. The CMOS of S10 is about 1.5x the size of HF20 (2.25x the area), that's not very similar. This results in a much better S/N ratio, which is particularly effective for fine gradation in low light conditions. If your looking for low light performance the S10 should be much better.
Since it is a new release it is expensive, if you are not in a big rush wait a month and several $'s should shed.

Jeff

Jeff -

Of course, you're absolutely right. Since that post (which I couldn't delete), I have learned exactly that...

Well team –

Having gone round in circles for a good while shortening and lengthening my list, trying to weigh up the options sensibly, annoying people in camera shops... I have (sort of) decided.

Since my last post, which was flawed, I have learnt a lot more about what’s hot and what’s not – as a complete novice at this, it’s quite difficult. In my last post, I foolishly stated that the Canon HF20 & the HF S10 had similar specifications. HA! I’d like to thank everyone for not jumping down my throat and telling me what a moron I was... and Jeff, for doing it politely!

Those two cameras became my short list... not that there was much wrong with the comparable Panasonic & Sony models... but a bloke had to make a decision. I was partly influenced by the fact that I could get a great deal buying online (Ryda dot com for those in OZ) – cheaper than any duty free deal I could cut.

So – now my short list is down to one. Canon HF S10. Yes – despite the extra cost – I’m about to bite the bullet and order it. If you’d like to send donations so I have something to eat while I’m out videographing, they’d be greatly appreciated!

Here are a couple of reviews, if you’re at all interested.
http://www.trustedreviews.com/camcorders/review/2009/04/18/Canon-LEGRIA-HF20/p1

http://www.trustedreviews.com/camcorders/review/2009/03/21/Canon-LEGRIA-HF-S10/p1

Cheers and thank you for your input -

Tony
Tread gently and you'll hear the daisies grow...

Quote: If you’d like to send donations so I have something to eat while I’m out videographing, they’d be greatly appreciated!

Hi Tony,

If you are ever up my way and in need of accommodation we always have the dog house

I'm envious as always...although the Pana is great, if I do it all over again, I probably would go the Canon.


Edit woah...I see what you mean about a donation....just looked up the price on ryda

Ladies and Gentlemen -

Today I ordered the Canon HF S10 - should have it in a day or two - and I'd like to thank everyone who donated generously to the cause.

Dafydd - who has pledged his earnings for the rest of this year JUST so I can have the camera I want - what a gentleman!
Charles - who's kindly offered to forward all the donations from his new Mask Converter - much appreciated.
Cranston - who's donated the royalties from his latest animation featuring members of the forum - ONYA mate!
Adrian - who's offered to construct an infallible underwater housing for it - thanks buddy.
James - who's offered to test the camera for the next 12 months to ensure I've made the right choice. Thanks grasshopper!!!
Barry - who's going to sell photos of whatever that thing is that is longer than Adrian's & forward the profits to me - thank you big guy!
Jeff - for his kind advice in helping me select this camera.
pjc - for the use of his doghouse if the bank has to foreclose on the mortgage - tar mate - I'd do the same for you.

Thank you one and all for you totally unexpected generosity.



Cheers -

Tony Tread gently and you'll hear the daisies grow...

Hi Tony,

One last thing - something I'm particularly sensitive about :-

insurance

Cheers
Adrian Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. (see below)
Confucius
AMD Phenom IIX6 1055T, win10, 5 internal drives, 7 usb drives, struggling power supply.

Hi Tony,

Not sure I can afford to max the donation and have to lower your expectations a little. Please adjust your budget accordingly - to the place where it's you giving me a few bucks!!

Please take notice of Adrian's "insurance" concerns. Yorkshire divers know a thing or two about camera dunking, a specialist task not undertaking lightly. I've heard, video editing panama hatted scuba divers carry out tests in the most hazardous conditions of warm, exotic, fish filled, wreck strewn Red Sea locations that leads to dippy moments of case clasp forgetfulness on water proof casing! A shock and awe moment for some, others just curse while Yorkshiremen mutter "Aye"

Insurance.... "Aye"

Dafydd