Ryzen reasoning ?

GerryQ

Member Joined: Aug 26, 2015 14:43 Messages: 63 Offline

Solved by

Mar 19, 2017 09:41

So this weekend I took the plunge and ordered a replacement for my old 'Advent' PC...(i7 2600 3.4GHz, AMD Radeon HD6670 '1Gb' , 8 Gb RAM, 1 x 2TB hard drive - spinny version )

I had looked here for advice... But newer stuff like Ryzen seemed to not get a mention ?

So... AMD 1700X - Pro' OC'd to circa 4GHz, Corsair H100i V2 water cooling.

Asus Prime X370-Pro MB, 32Gb 2666 RAM.

GPU - I went with 8Gb RX480, so many conflicting stories re video editing... - But went for LG 27UD68P monitor - it's 4K Free-sync. (Hence the AMD card - There's also something about the build being all AMD ! )

SSD's - 1 x 250Gb Samsung 960 Evo M2, 1 x 250 Gb Samsung 850 Evo SATA.

Interestingly, I had thought that I'd put the Win 10, programs etc on the 960 as it's blisteringly fast...However - The builder and some other forums say it's better to put this stuff on the 850 SATA... It's only read the once at load up... Keeping the faster M2 drive for project files.

Main storage/Archive 4TB WD4000FYYZ - A fairly robust spinny HDD

'Silent' case fitted with Blu-Ray recorder and USB 3.0 SD Card reader/Hub on the front.

I wondered if anyone had conflicting ideas as to where the OS/PD15 should live ?

Is it worth the effort to 'Produce'/render the final video directly into a folder on the HDD as there's little to be gained from the M2's speed during actual rendering and I'm saving the M2 drive a little ?

To be honest, the old PC runs PD13 for 1080 video quite well. I've been editing video since last century with footage from a Sony Hi8 camera and Windows 98. Incremental sizes in video have been accompanied by reciprocal PC updates over the years. Where the thing started to crawl was when making 4K time-lapse video.

Modern cameras - (Even smart phones) now take photographs well over 3840x2160. First up is selecting the area and sizing/cropping 1000's photographs... (Current PC = Set batch process running, then go and make dinner)

Once loaded into PD (1999 at a time), there may be a few tweaks /text over-lays/fade overs etc... Then "Produce"

My current set-up cannot go faster than about 5 or 6% 'Real-time'. It seems that 4K is one hell of a jump from 1080p in PC demands. Actually, I can't remember video standards actually going 4X larger in one step before...

Another area to investigate is with 360 video. I've bought PD15 for the new PC as Father Christmas delivered a 360fly 4K this year. I've up-loaded a few videos/photos to facebook. I can't wait to see if I can actually edit the footage properly.

It would be fantastic to have a 'Player' that could allow scrolling of 360 video on a modern 'Smart TV' played from a USB drive directly attached to the telly... Currently, I have to upload to youtube and then launch the youtube app on the TV to watch it... Alternatively, cast my phone to the TV and use this - it can give easier 'scrolling' but the quality takes a hit in either scenario.

Anyone know if there's any way of doing this ?(I already have a Samsung VR headset to match my S7, but that's only a one-at-a-time experience !)

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Mar 19, 2017 11:43

Quote: Is it worth the effort to 'Produce'/render the final video directly into a folder on the HDD as there's little to be gained from the M2's speed during actual rendering and I'm saving the M2 drive a little ?

Unsure what you mean by worth the effort, what effort, setting a different export destination?

Generally, I/O not a bottleneck with any compressed video (h.264, h.265) and PD editing. Face it, for most consumer type cameras one has 20-60Mbps source so one's only talking 7.5MB/sec read and similar write for same quality and 1X encode or playback speed. Even multiple video tracks and CPU/GPU hardware capable of 2X encode speeds will still be easily handled by any current HDD as most have 200+MB/sec read/write capability. Currently only time a SSD provides significant benefit for PD editing is for source destination when one uses an intermediate codec as there you have 10X the read rate for editing in PD. Several video tracks of intermediate codec source can become a read issue without proper hardware. Of course, many WIN benefits for OS on M2/SSD drive.

Quote: My current set-up cannot go faster than about 5 or 6% 'Real-time'. It seems that 4K is one hell of a jump from 1080p in PC demands

1.05x about par for software encoding and your given CPU performance. Very easy to get excellent quality and encode speeds 2-3X faster than realtime with 4K streams with GPU encoding with PD15. Not currently with a RX480 though as GPU encode not supported in PD15, maybe in a future release though, CL is/was working support details.

Jeff

GerryQ

Member Joined: Aug 26, 2015 14:43 Messages: 63 Offline

Mar 19, 2017 15:39

Hi Jeff,

I know it's not too hard to set up another folder - but I normally keep all the source files and final video all together as one unit / folder with subfolders - Then if I ever re-visit a project, I can find everything easily. Hence I would normally let it encode to where the source files are and then copy the lot all in one hit onto the HDD for keeping. I know the M2 drive won't add any benefits here - just housekeeping and keeping everything together as I do today. I hear stories of specifically not writing to SSD's too often - Or is that just something from the past that no longer applies?

Your comment
"Very easy to get excellent quality and encode speeds 2-3X faster than realtime with 4K streams with GPU encoding with PD15. Not currently with a RX480 though as GPU encode not supported in PD15"
From this I would take it that some GPU's ARE supported but not the RX480 ?

Gerry

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Mar 19, 2017 17:41

Quote:
I know it's not too hard to set up another folder - but I normally keep all the source files and final video all together as one unit / folder with subfolders - Then if I ever re-visit a project, I can find everything easily.

Just keep all your PD project files on the 4TB WD, no harm, no editing or rendering slowness with any H.264 or H.265 common video streams and PD15 vs SSD for video files. CPU will drag way before I/O throttle when working with H.264 or H.265 streams.

Quote: Your comment
"Very easy to get excellent quality and encode speeds 2-3X faster than realtime with 4K streams with GPU encoding with PD15. Not currently with a RX480 though as GPU encode not supported in PD15"
From this I would take it that some GPU's ARE supported but not the RX480 ?

Any Nvidia GeForce 900 series or 10 series will achieve 2-3X. I’ve tested and reported results in the forum for GTX960, GTX970, and GTX1070 and they all do, other users also experience the same. Here http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/46200.page#post_box_239306 Eugen157 also indicates 2x with 4K and his GTX960. AMD VCE (Video Coding Engine) 3.0 needed for GPU encoding, 6/15 released technology, not entirely supported yet in PD15. Here, http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/15/50731.page#post_box_267005 post by CL mods indicated near future, last “official” pulse I’ve read.

Jeff

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 19. 2017 18:26

GerryQ

Member Joined: Aug 26, 2015 14:43 Messages: 63 Offline

Mar 19, 2017 22:38

Hi JL_JL,

So I understand that If I'd gone for the GTX1070, then I'd get 2 x faster rendering compared to the RX480 with PD15 ???

Naturally that card wouldn't offer free-sync to the monitor, but we're talking video editing here... particularly with PD15.

Maybe change away from PD then ? - Other programs do support the RX480 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKh3GW0KoxY ???

I'm sure that I could change the planned build to 1070 - Though if RX480 suddenly supported, then I'll waste £400 ?

I'm fairly sure I looked all over the forum re RX480 and saw nothing to say it wouldn't work - I specifically put it into all searches.

Yes I KNOW GTX 1070 is faster for gaming - though I don't need to blow up Zog the destroyer from planet Plyron... (Or anything else for that matter) and I would also expect a card costing 2 x RX480 would be better for encoding - though to say yes - the GTX 1070 is 2 x real time and the RX 480 is not supported at all is a bit of a difference !

That's one hell of a 'Whoopsie' on the part of PD15 ?

Do I consider then that Cyberlink has jumped into bed with Nvidia and all others just lose out ?

Gerry

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 19. 2017 22:39

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Mar 19, 2017 23:49

Quote: So I understand that If I'd gone for the GTX1070, then I'd get 2 x faster rendering compared to the RX480 with PD15 ???

No place did I state that, the discussion was in relation to your comment of 5-6% realtime encoding performance. I said you can easily achieve 2-3X realtime 4K encoding with proper hardware and GPU encoding.

My recent PD15 AMD experience is with a R9 Fury and a R9 380 and as the other post stated, neither support H.265 yet with PD15, even though supported by the GPU. Yes a Nvidia GeForce 900 series or 10 series does support H.265 encoding, so difficult to compare. I have no direct experience with your RX480 but would be curious to see if your RX480 does support H.265, I'd really doubt it but PowerDirector Moderator in that thread appeared to indicate it worked with some VCE 3.0 AMD GPU's, just didn't provide details on which ones. I do know it does not work on my 2 VCE 3.0 compliant AMD GPU's. If I was a betting man I'd guess next release is "soon". Keep in mind, they get absolutely no PR for a PD15 patch support so my feeling is it would be a major release support, so essentially Q4/17 and PD16.

My two R9's do support progressive H.264 profiles with GPU encoding at PD15 and are much faster than 1.05-1.06X realtime for 4K.

Good luck, post some results with stock PD clips with specific details that can be repeated on other platforms for comparison.

Jeff

GerryQ

Member Joined: Aug 26, 2015 14:43 Messages: 63 Offline

Mar 20, 2017 11:32

Many thanks JL_JL,

Many thanks for the clarification - I had not realised that H.265 was unavailable for AMD cards when encoding...So I've been doing some reading... I hadn't even thought about the differences between the two standards - Except that the bitrate and file sizes were smaller when using H.265.

I've seen that H.265 encoding 'Should' be available on the RX480 'Soon'...
The omission may have put me off the card...But I'm wondering if it's a great hardship ? - Not really. (?)

I have been 'Producing' short clips in Both 4K H.265 and 1080p H.264 for a while now...
Afterall, if someone asked for a copy, they may well have no access to playing the 4K H.265 on their TV.
I'd always ask what resolution they wanted.

Following your comments, I've just had a play with a small time-lapse clip (Circa 2000 jpgs at 3840x2160 resolution)
I encoded it into 4K using H.264.
When encoded with H.264, the file size is 464Mb, whilst with H.265 it was 335Mb.
(Still very slow on my current PC, certainly NOT 1.05 x real-time, 10 minutes for a 92 seconds clip !)

Visually, the two files seem to play the same on my TV (65 inch LG 4K) - Just that the H.264 is the larger file.

I don't wish to stream files... I generally save them to a USB 3.0 hard drive and plug them into the TV.
I've found this preferable for watching video files.
(Yes, my TV can 'See' the computer upstairs, but I generally even show photo's off USB)

Memory isn't a great problem anymore, so I'll just have to use 4K H.264 for the time being.

Many thanks once again for your comments - I can see that I would have been pulling my hair out watching the new PC crawl and struggle trying to encode H.265 files.

All that said, I'm still wondering about the GPU card now... If PD15 can use a GTX 1070 card and 'Produce' a H.265 4K in half the time of the RX 480 'Producing' the same project as H.264 I'd be mad not to fit a GTX 1070 ??

Gerry

GerryQ

Member Joined: Aug 26, 2015 14:43 Messages: 63 Offline

Mar 20, 2017 13:50

Just an update to the system...

A technician from the 'Actual build department' of the computer suppliers phoned me up
Apparently there's an issue with RAM speeds/problems with X370 Motherboards...
He's been having a nightmare with loads of builds and he requested that I let him fit and run the 32Gb RAM at 2400.
He reckons that the RAM could go faster in a couple of months when the bios software is more mature.

So just be aware should anyone out there be building one of these new Ryzen systems for themselves...

My confidence in AMD was failing a little - I'd noted on some AMD forums that some driver issues with the RX480 GPU were being pushed aside whilst the Ryzen was being rolled out and they sorted those first !

I had seen video suggesting that 4K encoding with the RX480 was OK for the price and had gone for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKh3GW0KoxY[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKh3GW0KoxY]
[/url]Albeit that the test was encoding in 4K H.264

However - Support for 'VCE', the AMD equivalent to NVidia's 'NVENC' for HEVC encoding using H.265 was a little slow in arriving.

Therefore, whilst the builder was on the phone, I transfered to sales and changed the new build's GPU card to a GTX1070.

There goes my free-sync compatibility, but I should be able to 'Produce' my videos using PD15 a little faster !

... And I'm a little poorer !

Gerry

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Mar 21, 2017 00:48

Quote
I had seen video suggesting that 4K encoding with the RX480 was OK for the price and had gone for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKh3GW0KoxY[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKh3GW0KoxY]
[/url]Albeit that the test was encoding in 4K H.264

Your linked clip is not PD and hence has no relevance. For editing with PD it only matters what technology CL has incorporated from the GPU. Many technologies offered in various GPU encoders that are not exposed via PD, for Nvidia, YUV 4:4:4, 10-bit color, various quality vs speed settings, on and on. List for AMD similar with H.265 encode support being only one item. One needs to discuss hardware functionality within the realms of what's exposed in the software, anything else is irrelevant for PD.

Jeff

GerryQ

Member Joined: Aug 26, 2015 14:43 Messages: 63 Offline

Mar 21, 2017 06:41

Quote

Quote
I had seen video suggesting that 4K encoding with the RX480 was OK for the price and had gone for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKh3GW0KoxY[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKh3GW0KoxY]
[/url]Albeit that the test was encoding in 4K H.264

Your linked clip is not PD and hence has no relevance. For editing with PD it only matters what technology CL has incorporated from the GPU. Many technologies offered in various GPU encoders that are not exposed via PD, for Nvidia, YUV 4:4:4, 10-bit color, various quality vs speed settings, on and on. List for AMD similar with H.265 encode support being only one item. One needs to discuss hardware functionality within the realms of what's exposed in the software, anything else is irrelevant for PD.

Jeff

Sorry Jeff,

New to this forum - Though had PD for ages.

Gerry

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Mar 21, 2017 10:18

Quote Sorry Jeff,

New to this forum - Though had PD for ages.

Gerry

I think perhaps you took my comment wrong, nothing to be sorry about, you can post what you want, if by chance a violation of some forum guideline or rule, the forum has both administrators and moderators for that, neither of those are me.

My comment was, hardware has many capabilities, the only thing relevant for editing and producing in PD is what of those features are exposed and truly utilized in the PD software. One can't base this applicability/functionality in PD on how another piece of software utilizes the same hardware.

Jeff

GerryQ

Member Joined: Aug 26, 2015 14:43 Messages: 63 Offline

Mar 21, 2017 11:20

Quote

Quote Sorry Jeff,

New to this forum - Though had PD for ages.

Gerry

I think perhaps you took my comment wrong, nothing to be sorry about, you can post what you want, if by chance a violation of some forum guideline or rule, the forum has both administrators and moderators for that, neither of those are me.

My comment was, hardware has many capabilities, the only thing relevant for editing and producing in PD is what of those features are exposed and truly utilized in the PD software. One can't base this applicability/functionality in PD on how another piece of software utilizes the same hardware.

Jeff

Cheers Jeff,

I'm about to open a new thread/question re time-lapse output settings - I know you have had some good suggestions in the past for people eg - use jpegs on seperate tracks to then modify 'Sets' individually...

Gerry