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agahst at PD11 snapshot quality.
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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I have been using some snapshots in the past, of normal video scenes in 1920x1080 60P, but did not pay much attention to their PQ, they seemed ok.

So imagine my horror when taking a snapshot of a test pattern taken with the Panasonic X900. While the playback of the test pattern looks great, horizontal as well as vertical resolution peters out at 1000 lines per picture height, and virtually no moire, the snapshot looks horrible. I am looking at the files themselves, PD11 is not involved in the viewing.

There appears to be no adjustment.



Eugene
[Thumb - x900 resol.jpg]
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73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9875 Offline
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Hi Eugene -

I'm not sure what it is you're aghast about Maybe I'm missing something.

PD's snapshots will replicate the resolution of the image/video in the preview screen

Examples:
► Original photo form Canon 7D (cropped to 16:9) - 5104x2871... PD's snapshot = 5104x2871
► Original photo form Canon 7D (no cropping) - 5184x3456... PD's snapshot = 1920x1080
► Sample 4K video clip - 4096x2304... PD's snapshot = 4096x2304

I'd post them here for comparison, but they're not very friendly file sizes. I can tell you that - even zoomed to 500% - there's little visual difference between the original & PD's snapshot.

Your original JPG (x900 resol.jpg) has a file size of 156KB. That makes me question the quality of the original. The Canon 7D JPG (above) resized to 1920x1080 is 1.52MB. Also - in that image - what's the strip down the left side? It looks like part of something else.

In Preferences > File do you have the snapshot option checked - "Use original video size as snapshot whenever possible"?

Cheers - Tony
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Enclosed are a few seconds of the original Panasonic 1920x1080 60P video.

Also included is the original ISO test chart in PDF format. The latest Adobe reader will print in tile form , my chart is 200% and has 8 parts taped together. It is surprising how some cameras mangle the chart.

And it comes in very handy for setting the sharpness control, usually near or at zero.

Eugene
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00002.MTS
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1920x1080 60P test pattern fr Pana X900M
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ISO_12233-reschart.pdf
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 16. 2013 16:17

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Thanks for the reply.
Yes Tony it is checked. So perhaps, it was not possible?

I will take an other look at this, you are correct, the file size is too small. But the BMP is 8MB, looks the same.

Well, did it again, same result, even tried "full HD preview". Wonder if the format is an issue?

Eugene

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at May 16. 2013 16:37

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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James1
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada Joined: Jun 10, 2010 16:20 Messages: 1783 Offline
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Hi,
I downloaded the video file, brought it into PD 11 and inserted in timeline 1. Previewed at full HD resolution and took a screen capture here is the result. Also took a snapshot within Pd (saved as Jpg) with no difference.

Jim
[Thumb - TestPattern.jpg]
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TestPattern.jpg
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TestPattern
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Intel i7-2600@3.4Gz Geforce 560ti-1GB Graphic accelerator, windows 7 Premium 12GB memory

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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Tony, I too did a 4K video test and the snapshot of it looks great! Same as original video resolution.

PD11 appears not to like 1920x1080 60P??

Eugene 73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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James1,
thanks. I looked at your files and they look as one would expect.
Must be doing something wrong here and will try some more.

As mentioned above the 4K snapshot came out just fine, used the "new project" command to try that w/o changing any settings.

Thanks again

Eugene 73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9875 Offline
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Eugene -

That can't be right! Your signature says 60p is awesome!

The clip you attached... how did you make it? It bothers me that (at about 00;00;05;00) it starts shimmering. Did you record a screen display of the image or a printed version?

It also bothers me that the source file is in a squibby little PDF file, which was probably generated in Word (or similar), meaning the image itself has been compressed/downsampled to reduce the size of the document. I'm attaching a cropped version of the original ISO image. Much cleaner.

I'll do some testing on your theory about PD not liking 60p, but I think it's going to come down to (a) the quality of the original & (b) how it was recorded.

Cheers - Tony
[Thumb - ISO_12233-reschart_crop.png]
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Tony, there is a wiggle towards the end when I turn off the record, that part should not be used, sorry.

I think I may have found the problem,
the snapshot looks bad if shadow file is enabled, apparently it will not take the snapshot from the original video, even though that feature is enabled too.


This does not explain why the 4K video snapshot turned out ok since the above mentioned settings were the same.

Turning off shadow files will produce good snapshots. Turning them on will produce ghastly snapshots.

As to the chart, it is app 35" wide, made up of 8 sections printed at 1200 dpi. When looking with a magnifying glass at the regions of interest, the edges are very well defined and are unlikely to materially affect the max resolution. When looking at that I do expand the monitor so it is not a limiting factor. At any rate the resolution results are the same as those published by CAMCORDERINFO for the Pana HC-X900M.
I did look at your cropped ISO file and I am sorry to say it looks pretty bad when expanding it, the edges are badly defined, not as crisp as my PDF file as viewed or printed with the Adobe PDF reader.

Tony and James1 thank you for your help. Since I always use shadow files, it appears that I will not be able to use snap shots.

Eugene



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at May 16. 2013 18:28

73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9875 Offline
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OK -

I understand now about the chart now. You only put it in PDF format to attach. That's what I was comparing.

You are absolutely right about shadow files & snapshots! Man - what a difference!

There's a little video on its way to YouTube that was intended to blow your 60p theory out of the water, but I'm glad you've blown mine away in resolving the problem.

Here it is Eugene - a video that proves absolutely zilch! http://youtu.be/6TU6BUIH4E0

Cheers - Tony

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at May 16. 2013 19:53


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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Tony, I did look at the video, nicely shot and perfect use for snapshots.

I wonder and hope that Dafydd might have a look at this since he may have the ability to pass it on. Not
much hope though, the button verbiage says:Use original video size as snapshot image whenever possible. I do
not like the last two words. But why is it ok with 4K video?

So over the last ten days I lost the use of SVRT (hiccups near transitions) and now snap shots. Hope this spell ends soon.

Looks like you are heading for the Sydney Opera House, I used to sail with my family too, from the West Coast a number of times to Hawai and Alaska and my furthest trip was to Tahiti on a 36 foot ketch. It was an almost religious experience to watch the Southern Cross go higher and higher every night. Those were the days of Super 8mm. $ 3.00 per minute after editing, 1970 dollars too. We have indeed come a long way.

Eugene 73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9875 Offline
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Eugene -

I can't take any credit for the shooting. My cameras don't shoot 60p I downloaded the clip from Vimeo https://vimeo.com/23133280 - hope ML71 doesn't mind.

I noticed a difference in snapshots from a 4K clip with/without shadow files enabled. The difference isn't as stark, but it's still there. Here are a couple of comparisons... http://youtu.be/wQKYBrFAmKI

With shadow files enabled, it doesn't matter whether you're using 1080p or 4K - the shadow files generated are 720x480 MPEG-2. Oddly, the snapshot still matches the resolution of the original video.

Anyway, what you've found is absolutely correct. With shadow files enabled, the image quality of snapshots suffers.

Cheers - Tony
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BarryTheCrab
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: USA Joined: Nov 06, 2008 22:18 Messages: 6124 Offline
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Question, if you have the shadow files enabled and completed, then disabled again, which snapshot quality arises? HP Envy Phoenix/4thGen i7-4770(4@3.4GHz~turbo>3.9)/Nvidia GTX 960(4GB)/16GB DDR3/7,200rpm/w10x64---
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9875 Offline
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Answer -

All the samples I used were taken after shadow edit files were completed.

Snapshots taken before they're completed are fine... as if you weren't using shadow files at all.

Cheers - Tony
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Eugen157
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: Palm Springs area, So.CA Joined: Dec 10, 2012 13:57 Messages: 660 Offline
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Dafydd,

Could you please comment on this?

Thanks

Eugene 73s, WA6JZN ex DL9GC
CYBERLINK PLEASE ADD UHD BLU RAY BURNING SOFTWARE
PD14,
Win10,64bit.CPU i7 6700,16GB ,C= 480 GB SSD ,GPU GTX1060 6GB 1 fan. Plus 3 int, 4 ext HDD's for video etc.LG WH16NS40 reads UHD.
4K 24" ViewSonic monitor.Camera Sony FDR-A
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