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frame rates
bolda
Member Location: Liberec, Czech Republic Joined: Feb 02, 2011 15:10 Messages: 96 Offline
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Hi everyone,

I'd appreciate hearing a bit of an insight into frame rates with respect to PowerDirector's inner workings.

PowerDirector shows videos as 25 or 30 frames per second for PAL and NTSC, respectively. I'm on PAL so I'm going to refer to this standard's conditions from here on (25 fps).

I've been so far mainly editing 720/50i videos; no principal issues. However, I have now started using 1080/50p videos and I've encountered a problem: I have been unable to correctly render a 6-minute video with 15 clips when I put transitions between the clips. I've tried different output formats but the production sometimes doesn't finish at all or there are some "frozen" clips or short sections in the resulting video, always following a transation (e.g. "Fade"). I've also tried a few different transations and their modes, with, where possible, our without Smart Video Rendering Technology; to no avail. Since the problem is rather irregular, I suspect my computer's performance could be the culprit as it's rather marginal so I have ordered a graphic card supporting nVidia CUDA technology; I'll get it next week.

Besides trying to render only three clips with two transations, which worked fine, I also tried to render the entire video without transitions as 1080/24p, cut up the output video to the clips again and insert the transitions: the same problem.

I'm not actually asking for help with this problem. I'm more wondering about how PowerDirector deals with the difference in the number of source frames, edit frames, and target frames.

If my source is 50 progressive frames, PowerDirector shows 25 frames, and the target frame rate rendered is 24 progressive frames (AVC), what are the relations between those? Also, are there any practical implications for the most convenient source format recorded with a camera if editing with PowerDirector is the intended use? Should I prefer shooting in 1080/50i to 1080/50p?

PowerDirector can also produce in 1080/50p. Again, how does this relate to 25 frames per second shown when editing? If the sourse is 1080/50p, is every other frame dropped when editing and then rendered by approximation between two consecutive frames or are the original source frames all preserved for rendition but only every other shown for the editing purposes?

My camera can also record in 1080/24p. I have somewhere (probably Vimeo.com) read a recommendation to shoot using 24 fps whenever possible (no reasoning in the immediate context though). Any thoughts on this format? I understand it's the original movie industry frame rate (actually ~ 23.976 fps) but I don't see any other applications.

Looking forward to your enlightening me. Thanks...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 24. 2012 17:19

James1
Senior Contributor Location: Surrey, B.C., Canada Joined: Jun 10, 2010 16:20 Messages: 1783 Offline
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Hi,
The frame rates quoted are for DVD-mpeg-2 the standard frame rate according to you country. All 2D dvd's are that even if PD10 outputs for a Normal DVD..if you get into blu Ray then the frame rate in not a priority it is the bitrate the way I understand it.
Jim
p.s Hope that is correct...it is my interpretation of the various formats..BD movies go by bitrate(?)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 24. 2012 18:40

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PatC [Avatar]
Senior Member Location: Suffolk UK Joined: Nov 17, 2009 14:00 Messages: 156 Offline
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Hi Bolda

like you I have migrated from 1080i to 1080P in PAL format.
My videocam input sources are Standard Def 25fps interlaced,
HD 1080 interlaced and HD 1080 50 progressive.

As I wish to keep the quality of the HD 1080P, I now always produce to AVCHD 1080 50P
even when using mixed input files.
I produce to 1920x1080 50P and play the AVCHD files on media player, I do not burn to disk.

In preferences: Hardware Acceleration:-
Enable Open CL technolory--YES. Enable Hardware decoding --NO

In Preferences: Produce:-
Reduce Blocky artifacts (SSE4 optimised)---YES. Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264----NO

I do NOT use SVRT because it causes a glitch after each transition regardless of all other settings.
I have used ATI graphics and also Nvidia Graphics with similar results.

I use "Splash Lite" (free video player) to review my results on computer as I find it best replicates
the results I will get when the files are played on my TV, VLC player gives slightly different results.
Windows Media Player does not always reproduce the faults so it is not useful for reviewing results.

In "Splash Lite" you are able to single step frame by frame and see that your 50fps footage is
reproduced at 50fps and the 25fps footage is frame doubled to give the 50fps.

I also find that producing to 1080 50P gives good results when de-interlacing of the 25fps input.

I find it strange that PD10 is able to work with 50fps video but unable to show 50fps on timeline.

I found that rendering 25fps/50fps to 24fps gave a jerky stop start effect to any smooth movement.
However if you have 24fps native source files then they should give good results.

Not too much enlightenment, just my 2 cents worth.

Patrick
Loveclose [Avatar]
Member Joined: Feb 20, 2012 08:49 Messages: 76 Offline
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Quote:

I found that rendering 25fps/50fps to 24fps gave a jerky stop start effect to any smooth movement.
However if you have 24fps native source files then they should give good results.

Not too much enlightenment, just my 2 cents worth.

Patrick


Without wishing to lift this thread too much, that description is precisely what I am experiencing with my first bd effort. If you have any setting tips to avoid this jerky stop-start scenario, I'd be keen to hear of them. PM me if so, if you feel this question interfere's with bolda's thread. I've just checked my frame rate on the original footage and it's reported as 25fps

Cheers!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Feb 25. 2012 07:44

The meek shall inherit the earth, if that's ok with everyone else....
bolda
Member Location: Liberec, Czech Republic Joined: Feb 02, 2011 15:10 Messages: 96 Offline
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Thanks for your responses. I mainly appreciate the hint to use Splash Lite. Thanks, Patrick. Its Pro version might well be worth the 20 bucks it costs. On my machine, it's definitely a better alternative to VLC player.

I'm not much wiser about the relation between the timeline frame rate and the source or target but I'll keep exploring. As regards my problem with transitions producing from a 1080/50p source, I'll wait to see if the graphic card I'll get soon helps.

I've tried a few more things but didn't really solve it. This really could be an issue of my computer being obsolete for this kind of thing or it's a PowerDirector bug. Hard to say unless I can rule out the former...
JL_JL [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline
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I have no knowledge of PD inner workings, however, one can always learn to some degree based on the specific video details of what you put in and what you get out. Again, video details, and not did PD render my video without a bomb that most users are simply interested in.

From my point of view, what you really don't want to do is have PD do any type of framerate conversion. It would be nice to use native format all the way through the editing processes.

If the camera captures at 30 frames per second progressive then an output of 1080i at 60 fields per second will be same quality as simple deinterlacing during playback will recreate the progressive frame. PD works rather good with this and BD playback will be great.

If you have 1080p25 (25 full frames per second) PD handles quite happily as well. When you output to BD format, the resultant file is 1080i50 which has no loss of information at all because again when played back on a 1080p display simple weave deinterlacing will reproduce the 1080p25 native format again.

For both cases above, it is not changing frame rate at all. All PD is doing is splitting the one frame into two identical fields. Most players will merely interweave the two fields back to one frame again. So you really have no loss of video info relative to your starting footage and that is the goal. Two fields are required to make a video frame. This no loss occurs because the video was captured at 25fps but transmitted at 50 fields per second for PAL countries using 50Hz or 30fps, 60 fields per second using 60Hz for NTSC countries.

Maybe the above shed a little light or just added more confusion. In my opinion PD has always been rather abbreviated on what they are really doing and the couple of words in the video format boxes don't help, but again, probably what most common users desire. Most users are simply did it do something without crashing and does it look okay.

Jeff
CubbyHouseFilms
Senior Contributor Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: Jul 14, 2009 04:23 Messages: 2208 Offline
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Thanks all

Great read - book marked Happing editing

Best Regards

Neil
CubbyHouseFilms

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