SVRT and encoder quality

deBabba

Member Location: Frankfurt, Germany Joined: Nov 28, 2009 10:33 Messages: 88 Offline

Solved by

Nov 29, 2010 12:04

I completely agree to Andrew's and JL_JL's statements in a former post!
http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/14130.page

But like always there are two sides of the medal.

The reason why Cyberlink has trouble making SVRT work as in PD8 is that they have changed the AVCHD encoding completely. One can see this when the result file is analysed using mediaInfo.
PD8 produces Scantype:Interlaced files
PD9 produces Scantype:MBAFF files
The new encoder obviously cannot handle the single IDR frame of a Canon or Panasonic video clip, which is not in line with AVCHD spec and not tolerated by the encoder. This is the bad news

But there are also good news:

- The quality of the encoder is far better than the old one used in PD8
- It is a little faster
- The AVCHD result is fully compatible with SVRT. This allows to edit your video in handy chapters and combine them afterwards to a huge project without rendering again. The final movie is then of a consistant quality whithout changes in quality and structure.

An example for the improved encoding quality is below. It is heavy stuff for an encoder. A turn of the cam with hard contrasts and very detailed background.


Filename	Bsp2.4_PD8 AVCHD gerendert.jpg	Download
Description	PD8 rendered
Filesize	286 Kbytes
Downloaded:	223 time(s)


Filename	Bsp2.1_Original.jpg	Download
Description	Original
Filesize	360 Kbytes
Downloaded:	220 time(s)


Filename	Bsp2.3a_PD9 AVCHD gerendert.jpg	Download
Description	PD9 rendered
Filesize	249 Kbytes
Downloaded:	230 time(s)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Nov 29. 2010 12:15

I7-860, 4GB RAM, ATI HD5770, Win7 64, PD9 latest patch, Canon HG10 1440x1080 16Mbit/s, WD TV player

Best regards from Frankfurt, Germany
Andy

NicolasNY

Senior Contributor Location: Caracas Joined: Sep 28, 2008 17:49 Messages: 805 Offline

Nov 29, 2010 12:22

Quote: PD8 produces Scantype:Interlaced files
PD9 produces Scantype:MBAFF files

The MBAFF (Macroblock-adaptive frame-field) coding, its another flexible interlaced-scan video coding and better. Why do say that obviously cannot handle the single IDR frame of a Canon or Panasonic video clip?

deBabba

Member Location: Frankfurt, Germany Joined: Nov 28, 2009 10:33 Messages: 88 Offline

Nov 29, 2010 12:35

It took several trys and patches to make SVRT of the old PD8 encoder work. But even in the latest version it still produces stumbles, flashes and other things when the video switched from rendered to unrendered e.g after a transition. This happens on some video devices.
This is why CL recommends not to use the Single IDR Frame option in the produce dialog.

But of course the SVRT indication in the SVRT track is currently not correct. It shows no rendering required even when the whole clip is rendered.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 29. 2010 12:36

I7-860, 4GB RAM, ATI HD5770, Win7 64, PD9 latest patch, Canon HG10 1440x1080 16Mbit/s, WD TV player

Best regards from Frankfurt, Germany
Andy

pjc3

Senior Member Location: Australia Joined: May 29, 2010 19:33 Messages: 247 Offline

Nov 29, 2010 13:53

Quote:
But there are also good news:[/b][/color]

- The quality of the encoder is far better than the old one used in PD8

I concur. My biggest gripe about PD7 was the poor rendering of AVCHD. I spent many hours making work arounds and I was very vocal on the forum to improve things with cyberlink. They said things would improve but never did ...until now.

I have done multiple renders using reference clips as part of my evaluations of different NLEs and I have to agree PD9 has got a better solution than previous.

I personally am now not really fussed not having a fully functional SVRT as the rendering in AVCHD has improved considerably.
Panasonic SD9, Panasonic TM700, Panasonic SD600, GoPro HD Hero.

just_for_fun

Member Joined: Jan 23, 2010 11:41 Messages: 111 Offline

Nov 29, 2010 22:35

DeBabba
My renderings in PD9 are far worse than in PD8.
Did you change any default settings?
I am using the GPU with CUDA acceleration.
The rendering was so bad I went back to my older version.

I have a panasoic camera.
The video I am making my judgement on is fast moving ie; a soccer match with lots of grass in the background.
Its the grass that pixelates in PD9 but not PD8, and the ball some times disappears, but not in PD8
I bring this up because its similar to the jpgs you posted for downloads.

My rendering is just not as good, even the stills look worse in pd9.

I upgraded the graphics driver....
Any other suggestions?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 29. 2010 22:42

Just For Fun
i7 Core@3.8ghz 6gig mem 3 HDD geForce8400
Canon HF S20

pjc3

Senior Member Location: Australia Joined: May 29, 2010 19:33 Messages: 247 Offline

Nov 30, 2010 02:09

Out of interest, what is the result if you use CPU rendering? Panasonic SD9, Panasonic TM700, Panasonic SD600, GoPro HD Hero.

deBabba

Member Location: Frankfurt, Germany Joined: Nov 28, 2009 10:33 Messages: 88 Offline

Nov 30, 2010 04:05

@just_for_fun,
I never use any hardware encoding since I have experienced that there is no accelaration but lower quality on my machine. The rendering speed on your core I7 CPU should be higher or at least the same as using Cuda or ATI Stream of a graphic card.

The quality of the internal AVCHD encoder is much better than the harware based stuff. This the more true for PD9.

If you continue to use Cuda is a must to bring your system up to date installing the latest drivers, patches and updates for both operating system and graphic card. I7-860, 4GB RAM, ATI HD5770, Win7 64, PD9 latest patch, Canon HG10 1440x1080 16Mbit/s, WD TV player

Best regards from Frankfurt, Germany
Andy

just_for_fun

Member Joined: Jan 23, 2010 11:41 Messages: 111 Offline

Dec 02, 2010 00:17

Everything was updated, OS, graphics drivers, I dont think there is later directx.
Using the CPU and not the GPU is just abount as fast, but I have not run it on PD9, I always had defaults to use
the GPU.
I guess I can give a try, will let you know the results

BTW:Is there a way to check that the AVCHD encoder PD9 is using is a good version or do those come with PD9?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Dec 02. 2010 00:21

Just For Fun
i7 Core@3.8ghz 6gig mem 3 HDD geForce8400
Canon HF S20

GZ1967

Newbie Location: ALASKA Joined: Nov 08, 2010 17:21 Messages: 34 Offline

Dec 02, 2010 00:31

I have to agree with deBabba, the quality with SVRT and Fast video Render off is way better on my system. Any of you guys having issues with the Smartsound clips not burning in Create disc menue? Are we there yet?

Robert2 S

Senior Contributor Location: Australia Joined: Apr 22, 2009 05:57 Messages: 1461 Offline

Dec 02, 2010 00:53

Quote:

The quality of the internal AVCHD encoder is much better than the hardware based stuff. This the more true for PD9.

That is an interesting comment. I just did a test render, one using Cuda (hardware acceleration) and one not.

I then opened two copies of VLC media player ran both copies side by side stopping on the same frame, then went to full screen with both and alt/tabbed between them and I must say on my machine they looked identical.

I don't know if you are using Nvidia or ATI, I don't use SVRT as I tweak all my videos using Enhance.

Cheers

Robert2 S My youtube channel====> http://www.youtube.com/user/relate2?feature=mhsn

ZoltanCanonHF200

Member Joined: Dec 30, 2009 07:30 Messages: 64 Offline

Dec 17, 2010 05:06

Hello All

Personally the quality of the new encoder is - almost - irrelevant - for me at least - as the point of the whole SVRT stuff is to cut/edit native AVCHD streams without transcoding (fades are exceptions of course)

It's a shame that CL has released PD9 with the whole Canon AVCHD community left out with no SVRT support.

I think this is going to have an impact on the reputation of CL if not fixed asap. But I have trust in CL and I hope I can get back to my workbench again w/ native AVCHD support.

Cheers

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Dec 17. 2010 05:06

Andrew - Wales, UK

Contributor Location: Wales, UK Joined: Jan 27, 2009 19:16 Messages: 545 Offline

Dec 17, 2010 08:27

Hi all,

The SVRT issues affect Sony cameras in exactly the same ways according mine and Kevin's tests. I've personally submitted several reports to R&D over months about it and I know the others have done the same.

In terms of the transition bug, PD re-encodes the entire clip following the transition (instead of just the transition as it should). However, clips that occur after the re-encoded clip should go through as normal providing you don't add any further transitions or video enhancements.

Cheers,

Andrew

Alienware Aurora ALX R4 - Intel i7-4820 4.2 GHz - 32GB DDR3 RAM - Crucial 512GB SSD - 1TB Seagate HDD - 3TB WD Green HDD - 4TB WD Green HDD - MSI NVIDIA GTX 1070 8GB

Sony HDR-PJ810 and HDR-PJ530

pjc3

Senior Member Location: Australia Joined: May 29, 2010 19:33 Messages: 247 Offline

Dec 17, 2010 14:22

Quote: clip should go through as normal providing you don't add any further transitions or video enhancements.

'tis a shame even trimming the beginning of a clip is considered a video enhancement by PD Panasonic SD9, Panasonic TM700, Panasonic SD600, GoPro HD Hero.