Quote: Sorry to hear of the issue. Sounds like it might relate to source > output sizing... although streaming web codecs inherently make fine details such as grain mushy anyways. To help me answer better, please tell me your:

-- Source clip frame size
-- Final output frame size & bitrate
-- Web playback frame size

Sincerely,
Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com

Hi Michael, thanks for the speedy response.
Delayed action from here in in the UK!.

This is source info for one of my typical shots from the Panasonic GH3:-

Source Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L5.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : N=1
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 4mn 0s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 70.0 Mbps
Maximum bit rate : 71.7 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 1.408
Stream size : 1.96 GiB (98%)
Encoded date : UTC 2014-05-31 17:54:13
Tagged date : UTC 2001-09-15 07:12:15
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

As previously mentioned I have tried most combinations of output formats and profiles from PD12 to try and get decent grain (I'm after the fine grain setting 0-1) although did try most of the available GrainPlus 2 settings, such as size, density, motion, colour, grey.

I tend to stick with the following PD12 custom render profile, as I find it provides a 'clean' image for my current film with few compression artefacts visible; however I would have to use slightly higher compression as my Vimeo Plus account is restricted to 5GB upload per week and my film is 7.32GB using this output profile:-

Output: Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Sony PSP
Codec ID : MSNV
File size : 7.32 GiB
Duration : 32mn 42s
Overall bit rate : 32.1 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2014-10-19 19:46:42
Tagged date : UTC 2014-10-19 19:46:42

Output: Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=29
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 32mn 42s
Source duration : 32mn 42s
Bit rate : 30.6 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 24.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.615
Stream size : 6.99 GiB (95%)
Source stream size : 7.28 GiB (99%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2014-10-19 19:46:42
Tagged date : UTC 2014-10-19 19:46:42
mdhd_Duration : 1962789

You will notice that the output frame rate is changed to 24fps rather than the original 23.976fps, this is required for the audio to remain in sync throughout the duration of the film, as for some weird reason rendering in PD12 to this custom profile causes the audio to drift by the difference of the two frame rates. However when trying GrainPlus 2 the ouput frame rate was the same as the source frame rate.

Not sure what you mean re- the web playback frame size:
I'm viewing Vimeo and YouTube playback on:

Display Graphics: Display adapter type 2X NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680M
Total available graphics memory 12011 MB
Dedicated graphics memory 4096 MB
Dedicated system memory 0 MB
Shared system memory 7915 MB
Display adapter driver version 9.18.13.4411
Primary monitor resolution 1920x1080
DirectX version DirectX 10

I do like the film grain shimmer, but may have to accept that film grain will be unsuitable for web display with this particular film (or any?), and just go for the non-textured look, but must admit that I'm making good use of your FilmTouch2 Pro plugin (subtle look) and the vignette - one consolation :

If you can give me any pointers of settings and codecs which will work on preferably the Vimeo platform, that would be appreciated, as I have some 'shorts' in the pipeline, which I would like to give a very artsy, flowing look, with plenty of larger grain akin to the 16mm film.

Regards
Lawrence

Thanks for the extra info. There's nothing wrong with your setup... it is essentially an unavoidable compression problem. Compression is generally based on the assumption that:
-- Many neighbor pixels have a similar value.
-- Many pixels have similar value in adjacent frames.

A film grain's random, dynamic noise makes both of the above conditions challenging for a codec. To keep the bitrate sufficiently low in such bad conditions, the codec will discard some information which will lower the visual quality, thus either mushing the filmic grain or making it hard to see at all. This is why it is not generally useful for web streaming movies, and why you are seeing the problem.

Try reducing the strength of the grain and/or lowering the grain's density and movement speed. That might help somewhat.

Sorry we do not have a better answer for you. It's basically an inherent issue with streaming movies.

Please let me know if you have questions. Sincerely,

Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com

Thanks for info. I will run some more trials as suggested.

It just puzzles me as to why I can watch other films on Vimeo with the grain displayed and the likes of Rgrain and Gorilla Grain can show it in their promo shots, although I must say that some of their grain appear to have suffered from compression and look a bit on the blotchy side!

Regards

Please point me to one or more of the streaming movies you are referring to with good looking grain. It would be interesting to see their bitrate, frame size/rate, and what codec was used.

Sincerely,
Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com Sincerely,

Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com

This one springs to mind https://vimeo.com/41179254 although if you search 'film grain' you will see a host of grain promo shots.

Regards

Nice example! What I see there (very subtle moving filmic grain) looks possible with the GrainPlus plugin of our CreativEase video effects, too... try tweaking the settings as I suggested above to get such a look within your bandwidth requirements. There's no way I can see the size or bitrate of the original vimeo movie, unfortunately. The only other factor I can think of that might be affecting you is something in the PD12 range of available codecs and compression settings could be limiting your possibilities.

Sincerely,
Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com Sincerely,

Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com

Thanks Michael,

What I will do over the next few days is to try some more settings with your GrainPlus2 plugin as you suggest, but render the clip to Raw Lossless, then use something like my Prism Video File Converter to compress for upload, rather than compressing with the limited PD12 settings.

Thanks for all your help.

Regards
Lawrence

UPDATE

I am pleased to say that following numerous trial renders and uploads to Vimeo, I have managed to identify a range of settings in the GrainPlus2 plugin, which are capable of maintaining grain visibility despite the Vimeo site file compression used; which do not end up looking as if it has been applied with a partially blocked spray gun!

For those interested the settings are as follows:-

Pixelan GrainPlus2 GUI:
Strength > 15, Density < 65, Motion approx. 70, Light & Dark, Mode = RGB = 100, Blend = Screen > 15 < 30
Grain Size Settings: 0 = Fine, 1 = Medium

You will find the screen blend mode will lighten the image, so a balance has to be taken between image brightness and grain visibility.

Additionally the upload bitrate needs to be greater than 15,000 Kbps, preferably 20,000 Kbps, the greater the bitrate, the better the grain visibility.

I used MPEG-4 format (24fps, Progressive, CABAC, High Profile and High Quality) for the trials, as this is the format I prefer to select in PD12 due to the availability of the selectable parameters which produce a better quality Audio & Video file without visible macro-blocking, or low dynamic range audio in the downloaded video.

You will find these settings unsuitable for viewing direct on PC, as they will look too grainy and harsh, but I believe this is what enables it to survive the Vimeo compressor, producing a really nice grain when viewed from the site, on PC, TV, iPad etc.

Obviously the use of those higher bitrates, means larger file sizes, so for my current 33 min. project I've decided not to use grain effect and just opt for one of the Pixelan FilmTouch2 Pro looks - I will certainly be using the grain effect for my next shorter project!

Lawrence,

Thanks for posting your update! Awesome to read your findings and that a useful solution was found with GrainPlus 2 from our CreativEase video effects plugins suite. Thanks for persevering through that process. With lower bitrate renders, film grains can surely be tricky to get "just right". As you found, upping the bitrate helps quite a bit. I'm also glad that our FilmTouch 2 film looks plugin worked out for you as a solution for your longer movies.
Sincerely,

Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com

Help! Are plugins compatible with PD13? I've just installed the trial as I am waiting on the discs package to arrive and my Pixelans haven't appeared in the program.

Sorry for the confusion. ALL of our PowerDirector plugins, which is our entire range of video effects and transitions plugins, are fully compatible with PowerDirector 13. My guess is that you are unfamiliar with where to look to find the plugin(s). Please see the "Getting Started" file that was shown after installing the demo but it also available anytime in your Start > All Programs > Pixelan > [plugin name] > menu. If there is still a problem and they are not appearing there, it could be a minor Windows Registry issue on your computer that is easy to fix. In that case, please email us directly at support@pixelan.com and we can walk you through the steps of solving that in a few minutes. Thanks.

Please let me know if you have questions. Sincerely,

Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com

Thankyou very much Michael, sorry to appear a bit dim, but could you help me further please. I have now installed the paid version of PD13 and have as you suggested found my Pixelan files in the start menu. Can you tell me what to do next please? (When I first purchased my plug ins, they inserted themselves in the program automatically.)

We need to know which plugins you bought from us. Please fill out our tech support form at http://www.pixelan.com/help-tech-support-form.htm with that info, then we can happily assist you more specifically. Thanks. Sincerely,

Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com

Hi Boothros -

This may not apply directly to you, but may help to point you in the right direction.

After installing PDR13, my purchased Pixelan plug-ins are found in:
FX - under the Pixelan tag (9 effects from Creative Ease)
Transitions - under the Pixelan tag (3D Six-Pack, Dissolve Master & SpiceMASTER)

As Michael said, it depends which plug-ins you have installed.

Cheers - Tony
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Just to add to the above post from Tony... Our new Blur-Sharpen Tools plugins and FilmTouch 2 film looks plugin will also appear in the FX section under the Pixelan tag. Sincerely,

Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com

HI, I have been doing a big project and am so sorry not to have had the politeness to reply to your kind replies. Michael, I will fill in the tech support, and Tony, my problem is that I do not have a Pixelan tag in the FX or transitions sections in PD13. (I have installed on the PC Dissolvemaster and Creative Ease.)

Okay, no problem. We look forward to helping you further and solving it on your computer, once we know more details. Thanks.

Sincerely,
Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com Sincerely,

Michael Feerer
Pixelan Software
http://www.pixelan.com