Anomaly with clips at full HD

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Solved by

Oct 30, 2015 13:51

I know my way reasonably well around Power Director -cut my teeth on PD9, and have been creating videos in PD12 for the last year without any real issues.The video source throughout has been a Sony HDR-SR12 camcorder. Until recently all video was recorded at 1440 x 1080 60i and editing and production results using AVCHD burned onto DVD disc to be played on Blu-ray player, provided excellent results. Just before my last video shoot with this camera, I discovered that the 'HQ' setting for this unit is 1440 x 1080 60i -I had always thought that HQ designated highest quality at full HD; not so. Sony uses the 'HF' designation for 1920 x 1080 60i. So I changed the camera setting to HF and proceeded to shoot some important video.Brought the video clips onto the timeline, trimmed clips and completed the project. All played well on the timeline. Then had PD12 burn the project to disc. All seemed fine until I viewed the disc using the Blu-ray player. With the exception of the very first clip, all other clips at approx. 1 second before moving onto the next clip have a short stall in the moving image --this happens consistently just before each scene change throughout the whole video. I have stepped through the video with the Blu-ray player at one sixteenth speed and notice that a frame appears repeated twice or three times (hard to tell exactly) at a location a few frames before a scene change. In other words, watching the movie at normal speed, there is a distinct on-screen flicker at approx. one second before a scene change -and the scene length is not a factor -it happens whether a scene is short or long, and no PD12 'Transitions' between scenes have been used for the project. This effect is visually accentuated when a scene had the camera panning. These visual hiccups are annoying when viewing the movie.When reviewing the project on the PD12 timeline and stepping through frame-by-frame, there are no apparent duplication of frames and when played on the timeline at normal speed, the anomaly described does not show up. Additionally, either creating a disk to file, or simply producing the movie to file, when reviewed on the computer, the movie runs without the anomaly. First thought was that PD12 in the burn-to-disc process is introducing this anomaly, so I also used ImgBurn from file to create the disc --the exact same anomaly shows up on the finished disc when viewed. No changes whatsoever have been made to the editing system. The only change was the setting on the video camera from 1440 x 1080 60i to 1920 x 1080 60i. The previous setting did not cause this anomaly in any of the many projects produced in PD12. The video camera setting change has introduced the anomaly. I have since tried a number of things to overcome the problem but nothing has resolved it. This included re-installing PD12 with the latest patch revision 4210. Made test videos using the camera at the HQ and HF settings with the exact same results i.e. no anomaly at the 1440 x 1080 setting, but the anomaly consistently appears as described when the video is shot at 1920 x 1080. I tried adjusting PD12 frame rate to 60 fps, went through the same test process with no change to the problem. Also experimented with making changes in the General Preferences Tab i.e. turned Use Drop Time Code from 'Yes' to 'No' --the anomaly remains. Long-winded explanation but wanted to offer all relevant info. I have reviewed the forum looking for similar symptoms, with no success. I'm out of ideas and need help to resolve this Anomaly.

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Oct 30, 2015 15:24

Here is my guess. That glitch at every clip really sounds like a SVRT issue. SVRT is a PD technology that attempts to not re-encode source footage if the desired output specs are nearly the same as input specs.

Your camera: HQ records at 1440x1080 at 9Mbps, FH 1920x1080 at 16Mbps

When you recorded your 1440x1080 60i footage and created a AVCHD, did you think it was 1920x1080 and specify that in the PD12 settings when creating the AVCHD? You could check this by looking at a disc you created previously in folder \BDMV\STREAM\00000.m2ts and see if this file is 1440x1080 or 1920x1080.

If item above is 1920x1080, PD would encode the source and not use SVRT during AVCHD disc creating, you were happy with results.

With the new FH footage, the source 1920x1080 16Mbps matches a PD AVCHD setting of 1920x1080/60i and SVRT would be used to save time. Now your playback issue, perhaps this SVRT glitch.

As a test, "Produce" your timeline of FH footage in PD with a produce setting of H.264 AVC 1920 x 1080/60i (16Mbps) setting. At the bottom of the settings screen make sure "Fast video rendering technology:" is not checked. You want PD to encode the timeline. Start a new PD project and bring only this newly created clip into the timeline. Create your AVCHD disc with the 1920x1080/60i setting and see how it plays.

Jeff

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Oct 30, 2015 21:54

Hello Jeff. The quick response is certainly appreciated.

Here's the result of your first recommended: to check the \BDMV\STREAM\00000.m2ts details... here are the results:
When the video camera was recording in HQ mode i.e. 1440 x 1920, the file shows that PD12 made a 1920 x 1080 movie.

When the video camera was later set to record in FH mode i.e. 1920 x 1080, the file shows that PD12 made a 1920 x 1080 movie. By the way, I'm not sure if the data rates indicated are of any consequence.

Next step will be for me to follow your recommendation to do a test: "Produce" your timeline of FH footage in PD with a produce setting of H.264 AVC 1920 x 1080/60i (16Mbps) setting. At the bottom of the settings screen make sure "Fast video rendering technology:" is not checked.

I'll advise on the results.

Regards,
Tim

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Oct 31, 2015 21:18

Update...
I 'Produced' a 1920 x 1080i test movie without SVRT enabled -then brought that onto a timeline and burned to disc. I'm pleased to report that the anomaly/glitch issue which appeared just before every scene change no longer occurs. Problem resolved.

A sincere thank you, Jeff.

I must say that I am amazed that I could not find in the Forum a reference to this type of issue encountered by other users... you would think that shooting video in 1920 x 1080i, placing on a timeline, and burning directly to disc would be a common practice -and surely the glitch would show up for them. Oh well, as they say: real life is stranger than fiction!

Again, my thanks for your guidance, Jeff. If you are ever visiting up this way, let me know and I'll at least buy you lunch.

Regards,
Tim

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 16:16

Jeff, I have a further update about an introduced problem.
I went back to the original video shoot and followed the same process described in my previous update i.e. your solution. Specifically, I called up the project on the timeline, "Produced" it ensuring that SVRT was deselected, then brought that Produced video to a new timeline ready for Burn on a DVD disc -I added-in a menu and then completed the burn. Format: AVCHD Encoding: H.264; HD 1920 x 1080/60i

Played the video on the Blu-ray player and indeed the anomaly/glitch before each scene change has gone. However, another issue has surfaced... The overall clarity of the video image appears a bit misty and any camera panning has resulted in what is best described as mild judder -in other words during the panning it's as if you are watching an 8mm film that is running a bit slower than it should be and gives a mild but definite stuttering effect. Also, there is obvious alaising especially on straight edges and fine details. The same video that was earlier burned to disc albeit with that anomaly/glitch, was otherwise pristine/smooth and without the artifacts I am now describing. What do you think has happened to cause this?

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 17:10

Any chance you could post maybe a 10sec raw clip from your camera to play with. Since the initial issue does appear to be a SVRT issue, a couple of options come to mind.

1) Are you DOS literate? If your camera files are m2ts type one can add all files together and most of the time PD is happier and this often results in no glitch between clips. You are simply working with one large file. Not sure in this case if the hiccup would occur after a editing split. The DOS command would be like:
copy /b file1.m2ts+file2.m2ts newfile.m2ts

2) tsMuxerGUI.exe (free) also works good for this task of adding a bunch of files to one continuous file if camera files are m2ts type

3) I don't have any experience with a camera as yours, for Canon's, it is very advantageous with SVRT to make sure the PD pref > Produce > Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video is ticked. You might try that. Or if ticked, untick.

Over the years many issues with SVRT. If you produce good results for one’s workflow it can be very advantageous. My acceptance has been less than stellar, others don’t see a problem or don't notice. Many artifacts as your issue, sometimes audio issues too, it all varies PD version to version. Very good thought, bad coding execution for my usage.

Jeff

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 01. 2015 18:12

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 18:53

Again, Jeff, thank you for the quick response.
DOS literate? Sadly no... though DOS literacy is becoming an ancient art form :-)

I looked at the properties of the camera original video files and they show as .MTS (not m2ts). Looking at the properties of the 'Produced' video from those files the properties show it as an m2ts.

Let's do a recap... the 1920 x 1080 60i video rendered well with the exception of that glitch at near the end of every adjoining clip... then I 'Produced' without SVRT enabled and with SVRT on single IDR H.264 video not enabled (so, no SVRT aspects employed) -then brought that video into a new timeline, added a menu and burned to disc. Results was no near endof clips glitch, but choppy-type video results. And we know that I have previously produced/burned many video project successfully when the camera was set to 1440 x 1080 60i. I recap this just in case anything else comes to mind.

My ISP doesn't allow the attachment of large file, but I'll see what I can do to send you sample clips --may have to do it over 2 or more emails.

On your point #3, the 'Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video' was not ticked --I will re 'Produce' the movie with this ticked and see what happens.

Tim

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 19:33

Quote: I looked at the properties of the camera original video files and they show as .MTS (not m2ts). Looking at the properties of the 'Produced' video from those files the properties show it as an m2ts.

My ISP doesn't allow the attachment of large file, but I'll see what I can do to send you sample clips --may have to do it over 2 or more emails.

MTS will also work for my comments 1 and 2. Just not like MOV, MP4, the files need to be a MTS (MPEG Transport stream).

Odd about your ISP, are you sure that's not their email criteria? You can attach the file here, just use "postreply" not the "Quick Reply" and then the "Attachments" button.

Jeff


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Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 19:33

Here's the first of two video clips attachments

Filename	010.MTS	Download
Description
Filesize	7872 Kbytes
Downloaded:	253 time(s)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 01. 2015 19:36

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 19:37

And the second video clip...

Filename	013.MTS	Download
Description
Filesize	8928 Kbytes
Downloaded:	203 time(s)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 01. 2015 19:40

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 19:41

And for good measure, here's a third and final video clip...

Filename	106.MTS	Download
Description
Filesize	7872 Kbytes
Downloaded:	196 time(s)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 01. 2015 19:44

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 19:48

I'll use Post Reply in future. Meanwhile, Jeff, I take it that you can retrieve what I provided --correct?

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 20:06

Jeff, regarding your point #1. Specifically: You are simply working with one large file.

I'm trying to understand exactly what you are getting at... Do you mean that instead of bringing in many camera video clips into a folder and then take each and all video clips into the PD timeline, that there may be an advantage to first group all the video clips to make one contiguous file, and then bring that file into the PD timeline for editing -splitting, transitions, etc? Am I understanding this correctly?

I'm still mystified as to why PD12 works perfectly for clips recorded in 1440 x 1080.

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 21:38

Jeff, with all of the experimentation, I thought it wise (for my sanity) to get back to a known good spot… so, I went back to the video file that I 'Produced' (with SVRT off) --it plays on the editing system correctly i.e. no glitches before end of clips and the video is smooth without judder or alaising.

Instead of using PD to burn, I used ImgBurn and simply placed the file on disc. Of course, this is without the benefits of a menu and chapters. I then ran the disk in the Blu-ray player and the result is: no glitches and the video is smooth without judder or alaising.

In the earlier experiment when I took this good file onto the PD timeline, added the menu, chapters and then burned to disc via PD12's 'Create Disc' the resultant video had judder and alaising -the only good news was that the before scene change glitches were not there.

This tells us that PD 'Produced' correctly to a file. But, PD was unable to 'Create Disc' cleanly using that file. My next step will be, as you have suggested, to use the same 'Produced' video, add-on the menu and chapters -and then have PD12 Create Disc with 'Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video' ticked (enabled) -which wasn't the case when I buned the video at an earlier attempt. I'm lighting a candle. Will advise on the outcome tomorrow.

Regards,Tim

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 01. 2015 21:41

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Nov 01, 2015 22:17

Quote: Jeff, regarding your point #1. Specifically: You are simply working with one large file.

I'm trying to understand exactly what you are getting at... Do you mean that instead of bringing in many camera video clips into a folder and then take each and all video clips into the PD timeline, that there may be an advantage to first group all the video clips to make one contiguous file, and then bring that file into the PD timeline for editing -splitting, transitions, etc? Am I understanding this correctly?

I'm still mystified as to why PD12 works perfectly for clips recorded in 1440 x 1080.

This is what I meant by one large file. Here I used tsMuxerGUI to join your 3 sample files into one continuous video file. The beauty of that is that there is no SVRT effects at the start/stop of each clip as there is only a single clip. We essentily did the same thing by the "Produce" operation when you unchecked the SVRT feature. You made one continuous video file but in that case you had PD enocde all the clips. The tsMuxerGUI route just joins them together, no encoding so it just takes a few seconds. Since that file plays back correctly on your playstation, some progress

My guess was and still is that PD12 works perfectly for clips recorded in 1440 x 1080 because no SVRT is used. Your AVCHD disc that you created was 1920x1080 which would force a CPU encode of your entire 1440 x 1080 timline source videos. Basically very similar to the "Produce" file you created without SVRT.

I'm not a fan of PD burn engine, just to rule any issues out there, since you are familar with ImgBurn, I'd always use the "Create a folder" option for your AVCHD disc burn operation and then use ImgBurn to burn the folder to DVD media.

Jeff


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Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 02, 2015 14:11

The Eagle has landed… one small step…

Well, Jeff, I now have a video disc that plays correctly --no unwanted artifacts whatsoever!

What got us here?

1. The 1920 x 1080 60i video that was edited in PD12 was 'Produced' with SVRT set to off (unticked).
2. The Produced video was brought onto a new timline in PD12 where menus and chapters were added.
3. The project was then burned using PD12's 'Create Disc' with 'Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video' enabled (ticked).

In a previous attempt to 'Create Disc' from the Produce file, and when 'Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video' was NOT enabled, I noticed that the pre-burn 'Authoring Process' took about as much time as did the 'Produce' the file rendering -as if it was re-rendering what was already rendered --this introduced the video judder and alaising affects.

In contrast, by enabling the 'Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video' in the Create Disc process, the pre-burn 'Authoring' time was a very short 4 minutes for the 24 minute video --clearly it was not tampering with the original Produced video file but only dealing with the menu/chapter stops and perhaps preparing BDMV structure.

A rather circuitous and frustrating journey to be sure -but I doubt the end point would have come anytime soon without your support/guidance, Jeff. Insofar as tsMuxerGUI, not quite sure how I will use this because the camera video clips need to be trimmed, transitions and screen titles applied. Nevertheless, I sense that tsMuxerGUI may come in handy in future.

And, finally, I appreciate not only the guidance you have given, Jeff, but also your comments which actually provided an education -I now understand why 1440 x 1080 clips don't present the same challenge, and what SVRT is attempting to do -albeit clumsily at times; and how to navigate around this; plus the additional tsMuxerGUI tool in the back pocket. So, if you are up this way in future, Jeff, the standing offer has been upgraded from lunch to dinner! :-)

The only residual question I have is: If instead of burning to disc from PD12, if I simply burn to file (I'm guessing that I should still enable 'Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video' for this) will this file include the menu/chapter stops etc -and therefore will it play correctly (autoplay/menu/etc) when I burn that file to disc using ImgBurn?

Best regards, Tim

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 02. 2015 14:12

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Nov 02, 2015 16:59

Quote:
The only residual question I have is: If instead of burning to disc from PD12, if I simply burn to file (I'm guessing that I should still enable 'Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video' for this) will this file include the menu/chapter stops etc -and therefore will it play correctly (autoplay/menu/etc) when I burn that file to disc using ImgBurn?

You need to "Create a folder" in the "Burn in 2D" feature. Pic attached. You can then use ImgBurn to burn this folder structure to a DVD for playback with menus and such on PC compatible player or standalone BD players.

"Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video" is really what works for your footage. As I indicated, for proper handling of my Canon footage it appears to be a must. Yes, authoring will be really short as no encoding needs to be done as input format and output format for the AVCHD 1920x1080 disc are totally satisfied.

I'd also try your raw footage and the "Allow SVRT on single IDR H.264 video" checked, you may be able to skip step 1.

Jeff


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Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 02, 2015 21:29

Okay; thank you, Jeff. I have another five different projects to produce with video taken @ 1920 x 1080 /60i -I'm back to looking forward to the creative aspects rather than fighting with PD :-)

Totally unrelated, what is the application you use to apply the red circle highlights on your screenshots?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 02. 2015 21:36

JL_JL

Senior Contributor Location: Arizona, USA Joined: Oct 01, 2006 20:01 Messages: 6091 Offline

Nov 02, 2015 21:36

I just use MS Paint (free) and/or paint.net (free) to dump a screen capture to, both handy and have png save capability.

Jeff

Tim the Toolman

Newbie Location: Vancouver Joined: Feb 12, 2015 12:15 Messages: 14 Offline

Nov 02, 2015 21:42

Thanks. It's been a pleasure.