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A small flag being raised
vn800rider
Senior Contributor Location: Darwen, UK Joined: May 15, 2008 04:32 Messages: 1949 Offline
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I recognise that I run the risk in this post of stepping over a fine line.

Firstly, I should say that these forums are an invaluable resource to those seeking information to address issues. I know I have benefited enormously over the years from both specific and more general information posted by many, many people. I hope that I have been able to reciprocate when the opportunity arises.

When trying to answer or troubleshoot an issue, I find my contribution will often fall into one or both of 2 categories. The first is where my direct experience, probably backed up by more or less specific testing on an issue, leads me to a conclusion that I feel I can or should share.

The second is where I may have an opinion but one that is not necessarily tested on the issue under consideration.

I make the distinction because, for me, when I post a "solution" to someone's issue I recognise that I do, or at least may, have a responsibility for the implications of that post. Quantifying this responsibility is often difficult, as one never quite knows the experience or personal circumstances of the original poster. Thus, if my "solution" indicates an underpowered CPU, I may be responsible for someone buying a new PC/motherboard/CPU etc etc.

Obviously, they must make up their own mind and spend their money but, and this is the crux of my concern, if my post is in the first category then fine, I can stand by it. If, however, it is in the second category, then maybe I need to ensure my post is not couched in terms that make it any other than an "opinion", so as to ensure the OP (who may be more or less experienced than me, but I don't know which) does not attach undue weight to my opinion, causing them to view it as "fact" and act accordingly.

So, whilst readily acknowledging the worthwhile efforts of so many, I occaisionally have had to pause for thought (so to speak) because, as a result of well meaning information genuinely given, I see that a poster has incurred costs with new kit etc. only to find the problem remains and it was actually another issue that was then solved at no cost, or a different cost, often as a result of more precise testing or exploration of the issue.

However, I do not underestimate the difficulty or effort required to get to the bottom of a problem, particularly if the poster finds difficulty (for whatever reason) in providing good, sound information to work with. Nor do I underestimate the genuine wish for members to help one another quickly and speedily.

I do think other forum members have, in effect, broached similar sorts of concerns when trying to get to the bottom of some commonly held mantras. I believe a recent thread on the "100Gb disc space requirement" was the subject of much debate in an attempt to bottom what some might consider (in some circumstances) a bit of an urban myth. Similarly, I know from personal experience that it is possible to edit HD on a dual core laptop with 4Gb RAM on a diveboat in Egypt, it's just not very quick, nor can I do complex things easily and, yes, I do wish I had my dual monitor AMD Phenom X6 desktop system with me. But there is a difference in saying (or intimating) that the laptop "will not work", as opposed to "it won't work very well but if you take your time etc etc."

I reiterate, it is not my intention to dampen or constrain members contributions, but just to raise a small flag about the quality or basis of information proffered and the accompanying responsibility that we all have in offering such information to each other.

I apologise if I have stepped, or indeed even jumped, over the fine line.

Cheers
Adrian


Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. (see below)
Confucius
AMD Phenom IIX6 1055T, win10, 5 internal drives, 7 usb drives, struggling power supply.
1Nina
Senior Contributor Location: Norway, 50km southwest of Oslo Joined: Oct 08, 2008 04:12 Messages: 1070 Offline
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Thanks for your input, Adrian.
I agree with all you said about the value of the forum.

Not that long ago, I wrote a post about “consumer NLE” in relation to a thread about system requirements. The post can be read here: http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/22520.page#120639

My concern for a long time has been how we possibly can encourage people to try to edit in “a smaller way”, meaning try out what their computer might deal with. Big is not always the best, and not always necessary. I realize that a lot-(or some ?) of people these days would like to burn their bluerays to the maximum with the intention of displaying their video on a 62” TV monitor.
If that is the case, by all means- buy a sledgehammer of a computer. Otherwise, a reality-check about what I’m doing/making could bring me closer to a result my current computer can handle and what I can live with for a while longer. It might take a little longer to finish a project in terms of pre-rendering and a little longer total render-time. It might be that I cannot use 10-20 tracks, only 3-4. (How many, reading this, use 10-20 tracks? Hand up!) It might be that I have to choose 1280x720 instead of 1920x1080. Uploading to YT: do I really need the full HD? (Is it displaying better, or is it only the fact of having it showing it’s full HD that matters?)

Even if more people these days are capable of building their own computer, I think the most common thing for “the consumer” is to buy a “consumer PC/laptop”. The “consumer laptops” get better all the time, true, and they are everywhere; in offices, schools, UNI’s, homes. 4 GB RAM rather common, these days?

I consider myself to be a few steps up from the average in regard to interest in video editing. My fairly new desktop has “only” 6 GB RAM. Sure, I will increase it, when I have the means to. My timelines consist very often of 5-6-7 tracks, a lot going on. So, what are my options? My reality-check is that I do not burn bluerays, I do not have a 62” TV monitor (only 32” and not likely to get a bigger). I make 5-20min videos which friends and colleagues watch on YT, work’s server or regular dvd’s. I have to choose a format from 1280x720 and downwards, pre-render 2-3 min at the time and stick to my settings when rendering out the video. It works just fine!

hilsen Nina

Just something.
https://www.petitpoisvideo.com
babindia
Senior Contributor Location: India Joined: Aug 16, 2007 06:11 Messages: 884 Offline
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Adrian
We understand your apprehension and genuine concern for the fellow members to provide help for video editing.

We are all here to seek and extend help and in the process sometimes we "do" get carried away by giving information, which a user may not benefit, at a cost or without. Our intentions are noble but aberrations do happen.

Sometimes the user is unable to provide precise information to trained minds and have to be coaxed to share the information we seek to understand the problem and provide a viable solution to the distressed.

The user seeks this forum,initially, out of frustration, to find a solution to a problem and feels rightly that what is said of the product should function at the first go. This does not happen always.

I feel you should let things go by and continue to provide help in the best way you can. Please remember, you are giving an "opinion" as you deemed fit in a given circumstance and the onus lies with the user as to how best he assimilates the information to the best of his advantage.

Cheers
Babdi

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 24. 2012 10:24

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1Nina
Senior Contributor Location: Norway, 50km southwest of Oslo Joined: Oct 08, 2008 04:12 Messages: 1070 Offline
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Babdi,

just a small, insignificant (?) question ....(forgive a gal)....: who is "we" ?

as in :

We understand your apprehension and genuine concern for the fellow members to provide help for video editing.





Just something.
https://www.petitpoisvideo.com
Cranston
Senior Contributor Location: USA Joined: Aug 17, 2007 02:26 Messages: 1667 Offline
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Quote: Please remember, you are giving an "opinion" as you deemed fit in a given circumstance and the onus lies with the user as to how best he assimilates the information to the best of his advantage.

Hi BabIndia old friend. I’m not sure I can fully agree with you there.

In my humble opinion, the “onus” should be far less on the newbie or casual visitor. I believe (as is the thrust and point of vn800rider’s post) that the onus is in fact on the senior members here. Because with such a senior status, comes an added responsibility to be accurate.

Certainly there are many occasions where it’s obvious that a newer member’s computer is way under-spec’d for what they’re attempting to do with their PD. And the tech advice from our more experienced user, on suggested upgrades, can be invaluable in getting folks on the right track as they plan their new computer purchase.

But there have also been three incidents here on the forms of late, where users new to PD, with 3 separate issues, were counseled to upgrade their graphics (which for some also required a new power supply as well). And each took the advice of senior members, and purchased and installed the suggested hardware additions to their rigs. And each came back to report that it hadn’t cured their original issue at all.
In such cases, is the onus really more on the newbie? Or, the senior members, who's reply count under their user name, is in thousands?

It’s not unreasonable or uncommon for a newer member to be very grateful that a senior member has reached out to help. And to then assume that the advice given by a member (with 1000-2000-3000 post to their credit), must be founded in some fairly extensive experience. And that the reply proffered is more than just an “opinion”, but rather a proven cure for a specific issue, based on the senior’s personal experience.
And I’m convinced that the moniker of senior contributor status, and one’s published reply count, makes much more of an impression on those who are new to PD and the forum, than what we all may realize.
Thus I do empathize with those who are new to PD and come here seeking help and guidance, but wind up jumping through several hoops, or going to extra and sometimes unnecessary expense when following the advice, that in the end, turned out to be more of an unverified “opinion” that couldn’t hurt, cloaked as a “commonly known fact”, yet it didn't cure the original issue.
It’s pretty easy to then, after having induced someone to perhaps replace video cards, power supplies, etc, (only to find that original issue persists), to say...
Well, the onus is really on the newbie, who should have been more careful in deciding whether or not to have followed the advice proffered. Because we longtime members can only do so much with the limited info we get.
There can indeed be a fine line there in what and how we reply to fellow members. But none the less, there “is” a line. And who better to recognize that line? The newbie? Or the seasoned member?

Yes, every newer user/member should exercise caution when evaluating the merits of the answers “they receive”. But perhaps the more senior members among us, should exercise even more caution, when evaluating the merits and accuracy of “their replies”.
And that’s why I feel Adrian’s (vn800rider) post above, is right on the money, as it reminds us all of the responsibility we have, to strive to provide verified accurate responses. Or at least make it clear in our replies, when we may just be speculating on a possible solution. Or are really only passing on something we read some other member write in a “similar” thread a few months ago.
Especially when the opinion or advice, involves the new user having to incur extra expenses in hardware upgrades.

We all want to help. And this forum has always been a great forum with loads of friendly, helpful and knowledgeable members. I’ve gained immensely from my association with this forum and it's members.
So I appreciate the intent of Adrian’s thread here, in raising a small flag to remind us all, to strive to preserve the tradition of verified accuracy, when suggesting major measures be taken to a cure a fellow member’s issue.
Then, there’ll be less need to ever place any... onus(?), onuses(?), oni(?), on anyone.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Apr 25. 2012 00:46

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CubbyHouseFilms
Senior Contributor Location: Melbourne, Australia Joined: Jul 14, 2009 04:23 Messages: 2208 Offline
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Hi All

Gee I must have missed this post - being upside down and all.

Great topic Adrian (any chance of posting some of that underwater Egypt dive stuff on YT?).

I, for one have definitely benefited from this forum and I enjoy the robust debating on some topics.

Further to Adrian's comments maybe we should have a disclaimer on our signature line:

"In NO event will I be liable for any loss or damage including without limitation, indirect or consequential loss or damage, or any loss or damage whatsoever arising from loss of data or profits arising out of, or in connection with, the use of my advice."

Happy editing all

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 25. 2012 00:50

Happing editing

Best Regards

Neil
CubbyHouseFilms

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babindia
Senior Contributor Location: India Joined: Aug 16, 2007 06:11 Messages: 884 Offline
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Nina
"We" are a big friendly PD family with all of us put together

Cranston
I agree with your statement that the senior has a greater responsibility to play in this forum;to guide and help those in
trouble.
To cite an example,Tony tried his best to help garylloyd,but all that was rewarded was accusation. That user failed to understand that Tony is "also" a user and was doing his best to help him out.

The seniors here,I am not a senior yet,sometimes are at loss as why a certain solution dont work with a certain user though the conditions are same or similar. In such a situation the person providing a solution is not at fault. MP3 file or DVD menus issues, for example.

As stated earlier,many a times the newbie is unable to provide precise information that is sought from him (not his fault anyway) which makes extending help a bit more difficult and, in the process the intended purpose gets skewed or missed.

As said elsewhere,no other video editing forum is as good as this.The pain Adrian and possibly Tony went through is justified for no fault of theirs.

We cant please everyone all the time can we ?

Thank you

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Apr 25. 2012 03:01

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HalCon
Senior Contributor Location: Charlottetown, PEI Joined: Mar 01, 2008 10:36 Messages: 719 Offline
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Sory if this seems a little long.

I have, many times, wondered when this topic was going to come up. Thank you Adrian bringing up this topic. Like others, I find this forum one of the best with which I have been associated. I have learned many things from all contributors.

For a long time I have steered clear of posting in threads that are discussing possible hardware problems/deficiencies for the very reasons that have been mentioned in posts above. As we have seen in the many threads related to what might be hardware problems, there is no ‘one size fits all’ answer.

Many of us have very differing experiences and/or opinions on what constitutes a suitable hardware set-up for editing. As one example, many have had problems with SSD drives but many are using them with no ill effects what-so-ever. The question becomes; Is there a problem with using the drives or is the problem the environment in which the drives are operating?

As Nina alluded to above many people, with less than optimal systems, have to learn how to make the best of the hardware they have. Learn what their system will handle at any given time. Not all will accept that they may have to take smaller bites, and then combine the results into the final project.

Some might say that my system is not really up to HD editing, 3d editing or BD production. My CPU is not the fastest/latest, I am still running XP Pro, I have only 3gig available memory, etc. But I am able to accomplish all that I want to do in bits and pieces because I know the limits of my system. Does it take longer? I have no way of knowing, I can only attest to the results I achieve. My results are always worth the time it takes when I view the finished production.

Certainly there are minimum hardware requirements that each potential purchaser of the product should be aware of, before they purchase. Most software packages list minimum and recommended requirements. Even those that meet the requirements may have problems due to software conflicts, running processes, and other variables that exist in each and every computer.

Is there a line, very definitely, and as users who seek to help others we must be very careful, as Adrian & Cranston say, about what we say and how we say it when it relates to hardware upgrades.

Hal OS - Win11 Pro, Alienware R13, CPU - Intel Core I7-12700KF 12 CPUs), 16g DDR5 4400 RAM, Video - Geeforce RTX 3080ti 12g, PD11 & PD365
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Bubba in TX
Senior Contributor Location: Central Texas Joined: Dec 12, 2009 21:32 Messages: 1332 Offline
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First of all we all know that the biggest catch all for PD not running at all is to install the latest version of QuickTime..... pass it along.... I don't know who the first person to catch that tidbit of great info was , don't care, it don't matter now anyway, but the rest of us thank you, and lets move on....

Adrian and "C"man I agree completely. "C"man and I have actually talked about this issue in the past few weeks. Computers are funny people. You can take two identical boxed computers sitting side by side off the shelf, consecutive serial numbers, take them home, set them up side by side with the same installed software installed from the same install disc's.

And one will run fine, and one will not. Ot one will not have any problem with a particular software (like PD) and one will have problems.

Yes, sometimes we scratch our heads wondering why the HECK someone has a problem with something in PD that NO ONE else ever has, even on very low end computers.

At time it is obvious that a 8 year old ATI/Nvidia video card is probably the culprit. But it may not be the only culprit.

RAM.... I ran PD 7,8,9 for a while 10 on only 3 gig of RAM and never had a problem. Like some of us I have ran 32bit and now 64 bit, or both on the same machine or different machines. For me and all the projects I do, 32 or 64 bit either one is fine. I do not exclusively use HD video but I do use hundreds and hundreds of low and high rez pictures in almost every project.

I don't think of myself as a so called "Senior" member because I have been using computers before you could even buy them in the civilian world, and never will. I am definitely not a Senior contributor for PD because of my knowledge of PD10 in fact I consider myself totally useless now because people are now having problems like never before and we never get the editing questions anymore because we are deluged with why does it not run questions.

Then there are guys like Cranston who has only had a computer for about 4 years and did not even know how to turn it on when he got his first one. Now he is one of the most knowledgeable persons I know (there are a bunch in here and I am using him as an example so the rest of you do not get offended because I left you out.)
In a very short time he has learned thngs you can do in Power Director that most of us could not imagine doing, much less learning how to "make" PD do it when it was obviously designed with that NOT in mind.

Newbies and anyone else do not like being told that their 8 year old computer is crap and forget running PD9-10 when they have been running PD7 or 8 for years. I am beginning to think there are some computers out there that PD10 simply will not run on that computer no matter what you try. What is the answer for those unfortunate people? Apparently we still do not know. A new computer that will not run PD10? Decent specs, even with only 3-4 gig of RAM 32 or 64 bit, average video or lower than average video will still run PD10...

I still in my opinion believe the at "least 100 gig drive free space" margin (or all you can get) works better than 35 gig drive space left as I have been there and have seen the difference. I would recommend a larger hard drive, simply because I would recommended a larger hard drive for any reason, or for no reason other than larger is better for almost anything. Or now days a bunch of USB drives plugged in, as I have 3 internal and 5 external with two drive docking stations. I have 12 drives available to me at any one time. Storage is NOT a problem...

I have had in the past and still do in my lap top have a very low end video card. They still worked... I used to lower my preview rez to the lowest setting all the time. You do not NEED to watch your preview in super HD def at all, but expect it to stutter and stumble when you do ( like the vast majority of us out here). I always know that my rendered project will look fine anyway...

Do we need to tell people to buy more RAM, a new video card or drive? A new computer? No.... Can we suggest they get more RAM, a new video card or drive? Or a new computer? That's a good question... A new video card, new drives, and RAM worked for me... on present and past computers, will it work for them??? Who knows????? Sometimes we sure don't.....

I would like to think it would for them, but the simple truth is... it probably will not... and has not... I can only tell you what did or did not work for me...

Nina, my luv.... "we" means "us" so called senior members.....


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Carl312
Senior Contributor Location: Texas, USA Joined: Mar 16, 2010 20:11 Messages: 9090 Offline
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I agree with all of the opinions expressed in this thread.

I have made mistakes in my recommendation at times. Partly because all of the information was not provided by the Original Poster.

Fortunately that series of posts did get resolved. I did recommend a new video card to that poster because the card they had was so underpowered it would not even display the content in the preview.

It turned out the the cause of their problems was a Stabilize enhancement gone wrong.

They were using stabilize in place of good camera work. The need to hold the camera steady.

CubbyHouseFilms, maybe we should use a disclaimer as you suggest.

"I am in no way responsible for any harm that may come to your wallet in following my advice."

Happy Editing, Guys and Girls!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 25. 2012 15:44

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