2 more questions!

for PF30 recordings, how is PD8 deinterlacing the 60i?

And, I wonder how interpolating the chroma from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 will look? Has anyone tried it? http://www.cineform.com/neoscene/features.php


Cheers,
Adrian.

One of my cameras is a Canon Vixia HF20. The AVCHD files (which have an .mts file extension) work perfectly in PowerDirector 7 and 8. In fact, not to be biased (they know I'm not) but PD8 handles AVCHD files better than any other software I've tried, including Adobe Premiere Elements 7 (which is very very slow compared to PD.

But I should also point out that I live in the States and my files are all set for NTFS, not PAL. So this specific question doesn't really apply to me since the "mixing" of both progressive and interlace doesn't really apply to me. I just wanted to let you know that PD8 works great for me.

Have you tried the free trial version yet?

Hi,

I have the Canon Legria HFS100 and shoot in 25p MXP 24mbps.

Since the release of the latest build 2508, PD8 now fully supports SVRT with Canon cameras, providing the SVRT box in preferences is ticked.

I have had no issues at all.

Cheers,

Andrew Alienware Aurora ALX R4 - Intel i7-4820 4.2 GHz - 32GB DDR3 RAM - Crucial 512GB SSD - 1TB Seagate HDD - 3TB WD Green HDD - 4TB WD Green HDD - MSI NVIDIA GTX 1070 8GB

Sony HDR-PJ810 and HDR-PJ530

OK cool. I own PD8 and really like it. My questions are more of interest, not support!

I am interested what deinterlacing method is used for 30p, 25p and is there an option to change it (weave, bob, etc). And also what pulldown technique is implemented for 24p from the 60i?

Thanks.

PD seems to automate the import handling of most files, with no user involvement. I'm unaware as to what method(s) it uses for handling deinterlacing and telecining.

In the output section the 2 basic choices are 30 and 25 fps, with limited customisation available depending on which format/codec is chosen.

I'm not sure where you will find that level of information, maybe someone else knows??

Cheers
Adrian

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. (see below)
Confucius
AMD Phenom IIX6 1055T, win10, 5 internal drives, 7 usb drives, struggling power supply.

Good question, I’m not sure what PD does internally, I’m not sure anyone here does, nor do I have a definitive answer to your question.
I’ll offer the following, to my knowledge, the Canon HFS10 at least, really does not record native 24p or 30p for that matter. Everything is always recorded at 60i, regardless whether 24p, 30p or 60i is selected. For 24p, Canon simply does a 3:2 pulldown to satisfy, ie. they add one junk/duplicate frame in 5 I believe. I don’t know of a low end editor tool to stripe out the junk frames and really have a 24p file nor do I think it’s necessary. So, I believe it’s recorded at 60i, edited at 60i, and played back at 60i for that matter. I believe it is left at 60i as most players can detect and remove 2-3 pulldown, reverse telecine, hence reconstructing the original 24 frame intent.

Jeff

I have an NTSC Canon HF-S100.

I would like to record in PF24 and then author to Blu-Ray @ 1080p23.996 which is a standard for Blu-Ray playback.

What I have understood so far:

1. In PF24 mode, the camera is recording true progressive @ 24Hz (23.996 Hz). But it 'Telecines' the 24p using a 2:3:2:3 pulldown to a 60i field. Therefore it creates extra frames so it fits into a 60i field
2. As far as I'm aware there is no automatic way to determine if the MTS file contains the progressive material? I only know of 2 softwares that can remove the added pulldown fields and expose the true 24p (they create an intermediate transcoded 24p file) they are Cineform Neoscene and Shedworx Voltaichd.
3. PowerDirector does not have an option to create 24p Blu-Ray disks. I don't see the option (interlaced 60i or progressive 24p) in the create-disc options.


Well I'm a bit stumped!
I've love to know what workflow I need to record Canon AVCHD in native 24p, remove the added pulldown fields, edit in native 24p, then author a Blu-Ray disc @ 24p for playback in any Blu-Ray player.
Any ideas?

I think I'm with Jeff on this one, in that the Canon specs say :

"You can change the camcorder's frame capture rate to 24p (recorded at 60i), which provides the appearance of the same frame rate as movie film."

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?ct=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=17992#ModelFeaturesAct

And
"In addition to the standard interlaced video frame rate of 60i, you may choose to set the VIXIA HF S100 to capture video in 30p (30 progressive frames, recorded to 60i)
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=17992#ModelFeaturesAct

But it does say "at 60i" (24p) and "to 60i" (30p) so confusion reigns.

This thread also adds to the debate:
http://www.camcorderinfo.co.uk//bbs/t144433.html

but leaves the argument still open. But, whichever is the case, PD is not that consumer customisable in this regard so.......

Cheers
Adrian
Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. (see below)
Confucius
AMD Phenom IIX6 1055T, win10, 5 internal drives, 7 usb drives, struggling power supply.

Good catch on the words, “at” “to”, I can understand why a good writer may have done that, or possibly, it’s a tech writer hiccup. Maybe that's what my wife means when I talk "at" her or "to" her or vice versa. One method is never very good!

For 30p it is a little unique, you essentially just copy the frame again which is not the same as adding a duplicate frame in 5 like Canon does for 24p effect. Again, for 30p I believe Canon simply is doubling the same frame and interlacing them "to" get the 60i. For 24p you are adding frames and recording “at” 60i. For this Canon camera I think this is true as the current CMOS "only" captures at 60i, so the 24p and 30p settings create an appearance not native video.

All this discussion gives the PD8 editor, well nothing, so I guess the discussion can really go nowhere.

Jeff

Quote: I think I'm with Jeff on this one, in that the Canon specs say :

"You can change the camcorder's frame capture rate to 24p (recorded at 60i), which provides the appearance of the same frame rate as movie film."

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?ct=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=17992#ModelFeaturesAct

And
"In addition to the standard interlaced video frame rate of 60i, you may choose to set the VIXIA HF S100 to capture video in 30p (30 progressive frames, recorded to 60i)
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=17992#ModelFeaturesAct

But it does say "at 60i" (24p) and "to 60i" (30p) so confusion reigns.

This thread also adds to the debate:
http://www.camcorderinfo.co.uk//bbs/t144433.html

but leaves the argument still open. But, whichever is the case, PD is not that consumer customisable in this regard so.......

Cheers
Adrian

Here's some evidence to show Canon IS recording in progressive 24p then adding junk frames to make it 60i (and not the other way around). That is pretty standard Telecine pulldown stuff:

http://eugenia.gnomefiles.org/2008/01/04/canon-avchd-24p-pulldown-removal/

http://forum.corecodec.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=817&p=5213&hilit=avchd+pf24#p4889

http://forum.corecodec.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1163&p=6947&hilit=shais#p6793

And almost all topics on PF24 in here too:
http://www.hv20.com/index.php

Quote:

All this discussion gives the PD8 editor, well nothing, so I guess the discussion can really go nowhere.

Jeff

I disagree!
For those who want to use PD to edit in 24p, we need to understand how to remove the pulldown frames.

I would love to see this as a new feature.

For those who want to use PD to edit in 24p, we need to understand how to remove the pulldown frames.

Sorry, I guess I'm missing something, what issue are you having during your PD editing and playback, speed issues, interlace effects, jerks, that need correcting?

I don't see an obvious issue with my 24p Canon footage saved at 60i, edited in PD8, burnt to Blu-ray and played in PS3. The 24p "effect" is there during playback. As I indicated above, the PS3 (as well as most players) will detect and remove the pulldown that was in the 60i source.

Jeff

JL: Oh cool! That's great to hear if I understand this correctly:

You import PF24 ->edit in 60i in PD8 ->burn to BR / save to file as 60i -> play in PS3 -> PS3 recognizes it's actually 24p in a 60i wrapper -> PS3 does the IVTC and removes the pulldown frames -> PS3 outputs 24p to your receiver / TV?

Is that right? Is your TV receiving 24p or 60i? That's the whole reason I'm trying to do this!

The answer really depends on your TV. Some TV's can't handle 24p directly, I happen to have Samsung model which can (not all Samsungs do). Samsung calls it “1080 24p Real Movie” and it’s listed in the video specs of the TV if it is a feature that is supported, you can see it here. (http://www.samsung.com/hk_en/consumer/tv-av/televisions/lcd-tv/LA37B530P7MXZK/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail&tab=spec&fullspec=F)

If direct 24p is not supported on the TV, then the TV will typically do the pull down. Again, either way I think the PD8 24p edited footage should play correctly, what issue are you having with your edited footage?

Jeff

I have found a solution that works for me with PF24. I edit in PD8, send the edited MTS file to Neoscene to remove the interlaced pulldown fields. Then re-encode for a 1080p24 Blu-Ray burn (and not 1080i60).

For some reason my PS3 is not detecting the telecine and is not sending video to my projector as 24p. Additionally, my projector is not doing the same either. It can display 24p @48hz (you can hear the color wheel slow down from 60Hz to 48Hz). This is what happens for Blu-Ray etc.

Cheers,
Adrian.

What version is the PS3 firmware? This support was not added initially and was supported by firmware 1.9 or maybe 2.0-2.1 or so.

Glad you have a solution that works for you.

Jeff

Hi all,

I've been reading this thread with interest. As mentioned earlier, I shoot in 25p.

When I read up on my Canon Legria HFS-100 before I bought it, I noticed the information Adrian highlighted on the US Canon website, mentioning 24 and 30p to or at 60i.

The UK website mentioned nothing similar in it's technical breakdown of the PAL Legria equivalent, like 25 progressive frames at or to 50i.

It stated that it shoots in progressive and that's that.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=17993#ModelTechSpecsAct

http://www.canon.co.uk/For_Home/Product_Finder/Camcorders/High_Definition_HD/LEGRIA_HF_S100/index.asp?specs=1

The technical know how on this subject is a bit above me, but is that actually the case?

Cheers,

Andrew

Alienware Aurora ALX R4 - Intel i7-4820 4.2 GHz - 32GB DDR3 RAM - Crucial 512GB SSD - 1TB Seagate HDD - 3TB WD Green HDD - 4TB WD Green HDD - MSI NVIDIA GTX 1070 8GB

Sony HDR-PJ810 and HDR-PJ530

I don't own one so I'm probably not the best to comment directly, I will only offer an opinion and a contrast to the NTSC Canon model which I do own.

If you look in your manual from the Canon.uk site you will find.
"1080/50i*
* Recordings made with the [PF25] frame rate are converted and recorded on the memory as 50i."
That pretty much says it all. You simply have a 50i recording camera, not that that’s bad.

For NTSC, to me there is a slight catch and why 30p is generally regarded as better than 60i as far as resolution. 30p video will display a full frame at a time, an entire frame or snapshot is displayed for 1/30th of a second and then the next frame and so on. At any point in the filming when you look at your screen, you'd see a proper (full and unbroken) photo of the scene. Keep in mind Canon copies the same frame to make 60i so I have not lost or created anything. You do have 30p recorded to 60i, or in your case, 25p recorded on memory as 50i. They have simply interlaced it for recording purpose, it is a 60i camera and that’s it. Think of it this way, 2 identical frames, interlaced and displayed for 2/60th of a second, which is 30p. With true 60i, only half of the entire picture is updated every 1/60 of a second which means at any given time, only half the frame is displayed and the other half is 1/60th of a second "old", i.e. a different picture! This can cause artifacts and can tend to blur because you are mixing half of one frame with half of a different frame for a picture which may not be optimal. On the positive flip side though, this can give the impression of less flicker when viewing fast moving objects such as sports in which case the 60i may look smoother as the picture is partially updated, interlaced.

I recreationally film lots of high school sports with my Canon camera on tripod. I tried 30p in this setting and it really suffers, 60i looks much better for the reasons above. If you’re filming a kids first crawl, pretty slow motion, so the 30p will look better as it is a "full picture" and also can be a little better in low light.

The above discussion should directly apply for the 25p vs 50i PAL which was your question, I however do not have direct experience with the PAL version of this camera. The discussion is soley on camera recording, what PD does to your footage is another issue and I have no inside knowledge.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, very informative - I suspected as much!

Having played with my HFS100, I've settled on 25p. I mostly shoot footage of my son, mostly indoors. I've found the Canon's performance in low light superb.

Thanks again!

Cheers,

Andrew Alienware Aurora ALX R4 - Intel i7-4820 4.2 GHz - 32GB DDR3 RAM - Crucial 512GB SSD - 1TB Seagate HDD - 3TB WD Green HDD - 4TB WD Green HDD - MSI NVIDIA GTX 1070 8GB

Sony HDR-PJ810 and HDR-PJ530