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Mixing 24p and 30p... Issues?
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After testing a bunch of different video cameras, I just settled on a new Sony AX33 as my main "real" video camera. And besides that, I have a bunch of still cameras which also do excellent video (Canon 5DIII, Fuji XE-2, etc.).

I now find that the new Sony doesn't (seem) to do 1080p 30 fps. It does 24 fps. My other cameras all do 30 fps.

Am I getting myself into trouble with this? Are there any issues in terms of mixing footage from the different cameras?

Any tips on how to get the most efficient workflow/results from my multiple cameras?

I don't need to shoot 4k video, but the Sony does it. I've heard that it's often an advantage to shoot in 4k even if your end result will only be 1080p. If I do that, would it be best to first take the 4k footage, and do a rough edit first and then produce a 1080p 30 fps result that I then bring back into my project?

Thanks guys, for any tips/suggestions about how to be the most efficient with this.
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BarryTheCrab
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: USA Joined: Nov 06, 2008 22:18 Messages: 6156 Offline
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Eldor,
I just looked at your camera specs, it claims 30P, maybe you are missing a setting in the menu. HP Envy Phoenix/4thGen i7-4770(4@3.4GHz~turbo>3.9)/Nvidia GTX 960(4GB)/16GB DDR3/7,200rpm/w10x64---
Canon Vixia HV30/HF-M40/HF-M41/HF-G20/Olympus E-PL5. Tape capture using 4 VCR, TBC, Elite BVP4+, Sony D8 camcorder with TBC.
https://www.facebook.com/BarryAFTT
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The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
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Always shoot in 4K if you have it. All that quality is being put into a smaller 1080P container when you produce and the result is fantastic.

You will have problems with PD editing 4K as most the time the timeline will skip all over the place There is a very good way around this problem. See this post from Tony http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/43102.page

What I do is: Convert as per Tony's post and then edit as necessary. I then produce to a 4K setting to an external drive for safe keeping. Then re-import the 4K version and produce again at 1920x1080P for viewing on the television. It's worth the little extra work involved to see the quality. Eldor, if you need further help just ask Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
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Thanks for replying, Barry.

You are probably right (that I'm missing something... namely KNOWLEDGE!).

Yes the camera does 30p, but it seems ONLY in 4K mode. When you switch to AVCHD to get 1080p, it only gives the choice of 60i, 60p or 24p.

If I use XAVC S HD it gives options of 60p, 30p or 24p. Maybe that's what I should be using.

Now I've got to research what the differences are between XAVC S HD and AVCHD.

But I guess the bottom line is that I should be using 30P on all the cameras.

And what if I shot in 4K? Should I then preprocess that to bring it down to 1080 30P before bringing the clip into my project?

Cheers!
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Shadowman, thanks! I was called away in the middle of writing my reply to Barry and when I finally posted, your reply was there.

I'm going to have to research the differences between XAVC S HD and AVCHD and also will need to check out Tony's post.

I've just had the new Sony for 24 hours so far, and I've got a lot to learn.

Cheers!
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The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
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You will see from Tony's post that the 4K clips will temporarily be downgraded using "Format Factory" This process lowers the bitrate making them easier to edit with PD. After editing, the files are replaced with the original 4K high bitrate files, these are the files that get produced and saved as 4K. This process avoid using "shadow files" which are too darn slow.

Then you take that 4K file and re-render to 1080P. It really works - sound complicated, but it isn't. If it was I couldn't do it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 18. 2015 14:20

Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
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BarryTheCrab
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: USA Joined: Nov 06, 2008 22:18 Messages: 6156 Offline
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Don't the manufacturers always leave out some feature that they save for next tier or Pro-level cameras, when that feature could be there but for firmware! Damn them!
I'm not a framerate expert, but I would avoid 24P altogether, unless you are using it for a particular artsy reason. Feel free to disagree, of course.
You could convert your clips before editing, the 30 from 60 I think would render fine to each other, just use the fewest steps possible, to get all the same framerates and bitrates so you can match your other cameras, something's got to give. HP Envy Phoenix/4thGen i7-4770(4@3.4GHz~turbo>3.9)/Nvidia GTX 960(4GB)/16GB DDR3/7,200rpm/w10x64---
Canon Vixia HV30/HF-M40/HF-M41/HF-G20/Olympus E-PL5. Tape capture using 4 VCR, TBC, Elite BVP4+, Sony D8 camcorder with TBC.
https://www.facebook.com/BarryAFTT
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Quote: You will see from Tony's post that the 4K clips will temporarily be downgraded using "Format Factory" This process lowers the bitrate making them easier to edit with PD. After editing, the files are replaced with the original 4K high bitrate files, these are the files that get produced and saved as 4K. This process avoid using "shadow files" which are too darn slow.

Then you take that 4K file and re-render to 1080P. It really works - sound complicated, but it isn't. If it was I couldn't do it.


That seems like a long way around. Tony has helped me with lots of tips and all good advice but converting 4k with FF to HD and then substituting 4k clips back into PDR to get HD out confuses me (and that's not difficult).

Eldor was looking for 1080p 30fps. His camera can shoot AVCHD 1080p 60p which seems like a more logical choice than starting with 4k. 60p will give better slo-mo results than 30p and then Produce to 1920x1080 30p.????? I'm on PAL but my Sony camera is set on 1920x1080 50p AVCHD and my GoPro 1920x1080 50p MP4. My project is set to 16:9 50fps and I render to 1920x1080 25p mp4 and results are great.

I'm still confused!!

Al Power Director 13&14 Ultimate, Photo Director 6, Audio Dir, Pwr2Go 10
Win 10 64, Intel MB DH87MC, Intel i5-4670 CPU @ 3.40GHz, 16Gb DDR3 1600, 128Gb SSD, 2x1Tb WDBlue 7200rpmSATA6, Intel 4600 GPU, Gigabyte G1 GTX960 4GB, LG BluRay Writer
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The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
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Al.

This is for people who wish to shoot 4K. PD has a problem editing 4K (for most people). PD produces 4K very well, but getting to that stage is difficult without using shadow files.

The production of shadow files, as I am sure you are aware, is painfully slow. I can assure you that using FF to produce your proxy files is a very efficient and much speedier method. It isn't as complicated as it sounds. If you aint tried it don't knock it is what I say. Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
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Quote: I now find that the new Sony doesn't (seem) to do 1080p 30 fps. It does 24 fps. My other cameras all do 30 fps.

I don't need to shoot 4k video, but the Sony does it. I've heard that it's often an advantage to shoot in 4k even if your end result will only be 1080p. If I do that, would it be best to first take the 4k footage, and do a rough edit first and then produce a 1080p 30 fps result that I then bring back into my project?

Thanks guys, for any tips/suggestions about how to be the most efficient with this.


Thanks Shadowman but I'm still confused.

It looks like he is looking for 1080 30p (above) and his camera only shoots 24p and he shouldn't mix the 24p and 30p from his other cameras in the timeline. He says he doesn't need 4k. His camera does shoot 1080 60p AVCHD (which is NTSC compatable with with 30p) so I suggested he try it as an alternative to starting with 4k to get 1080p output. I can see the speed advantage to edit 4k by using FF to reduce size and then substitute 4k back to PDR13 - assuming you want 4k out. But if all you want is 1080p why not start with 1080p? He says he is looking for the "most efficient" solution.

I thought PDR13 gives best results when the input file quality is the same as the planned project output. Iv'e mixed (PAL) 1080 25p and 50p with excellent results.

Im not knocking the advice of senior members as a newbie - but I don't understand how using 4k to get 1080 can be better than just starting with 1080? It will save storage space on his camera and PC and save a lengthy time consuming process.

Would be interesting for Eldor to compare results - maybe I'll have to buy a 4k camera for better 1080 results??

Al

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 20. 2015 05:41

Power Director 13&14 Ultimate, Photo Director 6, Audio Dir, Pwr2Go 10
Win 10 64, Intel MB DH87MC, Intel i5-4670 CPU @ 3.40GHz, 16Gb DDR3 1600, 128Gb SSD, 2x1Tb WDBlue 7200rpmSATA6, Intel 4600 GPU, Gigabyte G1 GTX960 4GB, LG BluRay Writer
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The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
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Hi Al

It's really quite simple.

Take the millions of pixels created in a 4K clip and cram them into a much smaller container. Everything is smoother and it just seems nicer. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
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tomasc [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 25, 2011 12:33 Messages: 6006 Offline
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If your other cameras do 30p then try out 4k as The Shadowman suggested. You may find the combined 1080/30p footage is fine with the rendered part from 4k footage much better even if the produced is only 1080/30p.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 20. 2015 22:59

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delboy35 [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Location: Scotland Joined: Apr 12, 2015 17:21 Messages: 23 Offline
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Quote:
Take the millions of pixels created in a 4K clip and cram them into a much smaller container

If only that were true id be a happy man.

When you convert from 4K to 1920x1080 all those extra pixels and all that extra detail is chucked into the dustbin.Its gone, you cant magically cram it into the smaller resolution.Its a waste of time downgrading 4k, youl get better results shooting at 1080 if thats
what you want.
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tomasc [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Aug 25, 2011 12:33 Messages: 6006 Offline
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Don't know the sensor resolutions on Eldors 1080/30p video cameras. A few years ago Canon reduced the pixel count in their top and midrange 1080p consumer camcorders while maintaining the same sensor size. The result is a slightly less sharp picture compared to their older models but a good increase in low light sensitivity for shooting indoors.

If Eldor's other 1080/30p cameras have that low pixel count sensors then the 4k video converted to 1080.30p can be sharper. On the other hand, if Eldor's 1080/30p camera have high pixel count sensors then he probably won't see any difference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Apr 21. 2015 00:36

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The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Take the millions of pixels created in a 4K clip and cram them into a much smaller container

If only that were true id be a happy man.

When you convert from 4K to 1920x1080 all those extra pixels and all that extra detail is chucked into the dustbin.Its gone, you cant magically cram it into the smaller resolution.Its a waste of time downgrading 4k, youl get better results shooting at 1080 if thats
what you want.




Your opinion! Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
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GGRussell [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Jan 08, 2012 11:38 Messages: 709 Offline
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I agree Shadowman. I've edited 1080p video and then output to standard definition for DVD creation and the quality is much better than shooting in SD. I would think the same would apply here. Intel i7 4770k, 16GB, GTX1060 3GB, Two 240GB SSD, 4TB HD, Sony HDR-TD20V 3D camcorder, Sony SLT-A65VK for still images, Windows 10 Pro, 64bit
Gary Russell -- TN USA
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delboy35 [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Location: Scotland Joined: Apr 12, 2015 17:21 Messages: 23 Offline
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Quote:
Your opinion!
lol and every post you make is just your opinion! thats what open debate is all about.

no need to be like that when someone disagrees with you.

I get best quality by filming in 1080, rendering to 1080 and playing back in a tv which has a native resolution of 1080 so that the play back device and tv dont have to upscale or downscale.Both of which degrade quality.

I also get better dvd quality by filming at that resolution , rather than downscaling 1080.

Thats just my experience, take it or leave it.No need for the sarcasm.
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The Shadowman
Senior Contributor Private Message Location: UK Joined: Dec 15, 2014 13:06 Messages: 1831 Offline
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Delboy35

Why am I being sarcastic by saying it's "your opinion" when you have intimated that I was talking rubbish about a subject you know no more than anybody else about. Therefore what you stated must have been "your opinion"

Let,s not fall out over it Panny TM10, GH2, GH4,
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delboy35 [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Location: Scotland Joined: Apr 12, 2015 17:21 Messages: 23 Offline
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Shadowman

Its not just my opinion Its pretty basic and common knowledge in the video industry that you cant take the millions of pixels created in a 4K clip and cram them into a much smaller container.The downscaler tries to make intelligent decisions about which pixels to keep and which pixels to remove.DVD NTSC only has 720x480 pixels for example, you cant cram all those extra 4K pixels into it.So huge nubers of pixels have to be dropped and at the end of it your left with DVD quality.If you could cram them all in everyone would be able to make Blu ray quality video at dvd resolution and file size.Youl get the same answer on any other audio/video forum,but i doubt youl be willing to listen.

Where in my post do i say your talking rubbish.I was simply stating for the benefit of others reading the thread that what you said was actually untrue.What do you expect me do: ignore it,blindly agree?.How else am i supposed to word it?

Who said anything about falling out over it.If you think what i said is untrue,then debate it.Explain to me how the above is wrong rather than just posting : "your opinion!"
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Somehow we lost Eldor who started this thread. So I'd like to go back to his original question.

As far as I can tell, his 24p camera setting is "Cinema Mode" and I'm still not sure what it's for. He wants 1080 (HD) out.
Two possible solutions were offered to his question of how to use his new Sony 4k camera with his other cameras that shoot 1080 30p and get best results from PDR13.

First was to use his camera's 4k to shoot, then convert all clips to low res, add 1080 30p cclips from another camers, and edit with PDR13. After editing swap 4k clips (same name and folder) with low res clips and Produce. A trick which apparently saves render times in PDR13.

Second option was to shoot 4k camera at 1080 60p AVCHD, combine with his 1080 30p clips from his other cameras in PDR13, and Produce.

I don't have a 4k camera but I would appreciate it if Eldor could try a small project using both suggestions and let us know which gives best results in PDR13??embarassed

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Apr 23. 2015 05:03

Power Director 13&14 Ultimate, Photo Director 6, Audio Dir, Pwr2Go 10
Win 10 64, Intel MB DH87MC, Intel i5-4670 CPU @ 3.40GHz, 16Gb DDR3 1600, 128Gb SSD, 2x1Tb WDBlue 7200rpmSATA6, Intel 4600 GPU, Gigabyte G1 GTX960 4GB, LG BluRay Writer
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