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asadov [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 06, 2014 19:42 Messages: 23 Offline
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Hi:

I have cut two video clips from large file (i.e. there is plenty of audio on both sides on both clips) and put them on the same timeline adjacent to each other. Now I want to make smooth audio transition without video transition. If I apply "Constant" Power" audio transition, strange things happen:
1) Transition icon is placed only inside the left clip while I expected it to cover seam between clips from both sides.
2) I see video "cross fade" transition - and I do not need it!
3) I''m not sure that audio transition works at all.

I tried "Cross" and "Overlap" transition behavior in settings; un-link video/audio - nothing helps.

Any ideas?

Thank you,
Alexei
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It is normal to apply transition to audio and video files and maintain synchronization.
If sync audio / video, does not matter, after separating audio video, drag the audio to another track, I think you can do. AMD-FX 8350 / 8GB DDR3
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asadov [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 06, 2014 19:42 Messages: 23 Offline
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Even if I use only audio tracks on separate timeline, I can not cover the seam between two clips from BOTH sides by transition icon: it is always located ONLY at one side, see attachment. As a result, audio is fading toward the end of the left clip and then starts at full volume at the beginning of the second clip.
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CJC [Avatar]
Member Private Message Joined: Dec 12, 2013 12:32 Messages: 53 Offline
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It's not on just the one side. If you enlarge, or look closely, the audio tracks are overlapped. The transition is on the end of one and the beginning of the other. Try the constant power if you don't like constant gain.

Alternatively, you can try the cross instead of overlap transition. That simply fades out the first and fades in the second. It's smooth but there's a moment of silence between the two.
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Adding to that shown CJC see the picture, changing transition between CROSS and OVERLAP
On PD12, the transition cross equivalent, fade out clip1, clip2 Fade In, I think this is not what you want.

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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 25. 2014 10:38

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borgus1 [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Private Message Joined: Feb 27, 2013 00:33 Messages: 1318 Offline
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Quote: Hi:

I have cut two video clips from large file (i.e. there is plenty of audio on both sides on both clips) and put them on the same timeline adjacent to each other. Now I want to make smooth audio transition without video transition.

Yet another approach...

UNlink the audio and place them on separate tracks.
Drag the FROM clip end to the right; drag the TO clip start to the left - to overlap them.
Create keyframes to achieve a crossfade.



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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Mar 21. 2014 13:49

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asadov [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 06, 2014 19:42 Messages: 23 Offline
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No, close inspection shows that the right edge of the transition icon is exactly at the seam between two clips. "Constant power" transition does the same.

Before PD12 I used Premier Pro and there audio transition applied to audio track ONLY and worked as follows:
1) if seam is at time=t0 and tt is transition width, then right edge of the left clip is extended to t0+tt/2; left edge of the right clip is extended to t0-tt/2 (sure, these extensions are not shown on the timeline).
2) Audio volume (power) of the left clip starts fading out from full volume at t0-tt/2 to zero at top+tt/2; audio volume (power) of the right clip fades in from zero at t0-tt/2 to full at t0+tt/2.

I do not believe this is not possible in PD12. Note that picture on audio transition icon suggests behavior described above. What wrong am I doing?

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asadov [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 06, 2014 19:42 Messages: 23 Offline
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Quote: Adding to that shown CJC see the picture, changing transition between CROSS and OVERLAP



Playsound: Do I understand correctly that if you drop "constant power" audio transition at the seam between two clips , then you see picture shown in the yellow square "1"? That is exactly my problem - I can not do this! Transition always goes either to the left or to the right clip, but never covers both of them!
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CJC [Avatar]
Member Private Message Joined: Dec 12, 2013 12:32 Messages: 53 Offline
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click on modify and then cross.. it works with either transition.
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asadov [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 06, 2014 19:42 Messages: 23 Offline
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Quote:
Quote: Hi:

I have cut two video clips from large file (i.e. there is plenty of audio on both sides on both clips) and put them on the same timeline adjacent to each other. Now I want to make smooth audio transition without video transition.

Yet another approach...

UNlink the audio and place them on separate tracks.
Drag the FROM clip end to the right; drag the TO clip start to the left - to overlap them.
Create keyframes to achieve a crossfade.




Borgus1: This is very in-convenient (compared to supposedly on-click regular audio transition) and potentially dangerous (becausue you can accidentally de-sync audio with video)method but I ended up with your suggestion because regular transition does not work.
One question to you: If you suggest this approach - does it mean that you have the same problem as I do and suggested 5-step method is the only way to by-pass the problem?
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BillyR
Senior Member Private Message Location: Southeast US Joined: Jun 19, 2013 14:33 Messages: 156 Offline
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I'm not familiar with the transition methods described on this thread, but I stumbled onto this method of applying audio transitions early in my Power Director experience and have been using it ever since.

First I move the cursor back from the split about 1 sec, or however long you desire:


Then I click Audio Mixing Room (Arrow # 1) in the image below and the fade-out button, the only one highlighted (Arrow # 2):


That will give you a 1-second fade-out as shown here:


Then move the cursor forward from the split about 1 sec. or however long you desire, click the fade-in button (the only one highlighted) and you will get a 1 sec. fade-in, essentially a 2 second crossfade. Gives me the results I want. Dell Precision 7510 Laptop
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asadov [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 06, 2014 19:42 Messages: 23 Offline
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Quote: I'm not familiar with the transition methods described on this thread, but I stumbled onto this method of applying audio transitions early in my Power Director experience and have been using it ever since.

First I move the cursor back from the split about 1 sec, or however long you desire:


Then I click Audio Mixing Room (Arrow # 1) in the image below and the fade-out button, the only one highlighted (Arrow # 2):


That will give you a 1-second fade-out as shown here:


Then move the cursor forward from the split about 1 sec. or however long you desire, click the fade-in button (the only one highlighted) and you will get a 1 sec. fade-in, essentially a 2 second crossfade. Gives me the results I want.

BillyR:
I'll try your method. However, I have a question:
From your first picture I see that you selected RIGHT clip. Hence, Audio Mixing Room changes (picture 2) should apply to the RIGHT clip. However, the last picture show that you have changed the volume for the LEFT clip. Am I missing something?

In case you have applied changes to the LEFT clip, volume should not go to ZERO at the seam between two clips because there will be the moment of silence between two clips. For true cross-fading, volume at the seam should be half of initial value for BOTH clips.

I hope that this is possible to do with Audio Mixing Room, as you suggested. But I'm amazed that PD12 has no one-click solution to this problem available in Premier pro, Ulead and any other NLE that I used in the past.
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BillyR
Senior Member Private Message Location: Southeast US Joined: Jun 19, 2013 14:33 Messages: 156 Offline
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Quote: I'll try your method. However, I have a question:
From your first picture I see that you selected RIGHT clip. Hence, Audio Mixing Room changes (picture 2) should apply to the RIGHT clip. However, the last picture show that you have changed the volume for the LEFT clip. Am I missing something?

In case you have applied changes to the LEFT clip, volume should not go to ZERO at the seam between two clips because there will be the moment of silence between two clips. For true cross-fading, volume at the seam should be half of initial value for BOTH clips.

I hope that this is possible to do with Audio Mixing Room, as you suggested. But I'm amazed that PD12 has no one-click solution to this problem available in Premier pro, Ulead and any other NLE that I used in the past.
Actually neither clip is selected; you just see the lettering on the right clip. The changes are controlled by where the cursor is located. The moment of silence is fine with me, but you can manually move the end of the line back up to about half if you want. Click the little round ball at the end of the line at the split and when it turns red carefully and slowly move it up to about half volume. Dell Precision 7510 Laptop
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RAM: 32 GB
Windows Experience Index 7.5
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CJC [Avatar]
Member Private Message Joined: Dec 12, 2013 12:32 Messages: 53 Offline
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I'm still unsure what you mean by the fact that the audio transitions do not work. I feel you're being very vague with what you are looking for... there are a number of good ways to do audio fades, and most of them require a simple drag and drop of an audio transition.

Maybe you should take a look at this tutorial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhmUYIBcx1I
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asadov [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 06, 2014 19:42 Messages: 23 Offline
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Quote: I'm still unsure what you mean by the fact that the audio transitions do not work. I feel you're being very vague with what you are looking for... there are a number of good ways to do audio fades, and most of them require a simple drag and drop of an audio transition.

Maybe you should take a look at this tutorial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhmUYIBcx1I


Thank you for the reference to tutorial: it helped me to formulate two separate problems with audio transition in PD12:

1) If I apply AUDIO transition (i.e. I want to cross-fade only audio track) , PD12 automatically does VIDEO transition. Why? If I need video transition, I would use FADE transition from video library. And this is not a matter of synchronization - other editors can do AUDIO transition only without touching VIDEO and I can describe this algorithm in plain terms (see my comment at 21/03/2014 10:51:55)

2) Suggested bypass was to un-link audio from video, put both audio clips on separate timeline and use "constant power" transition with "overlap" or "cross fade" options. However, both options does not work for me because:
2a) "Cross-fade" option works like combination of "Fade-out: and Fade-in" transitions, i.e. it leave a moment of silence at the seam between two clips - I do not want this.
2b) "Overlap" option does what I need - keeps audio volume roughly constant during transition. However, to do it, it shifts right audio clip to the left, i.e. it really overlaps it with the left clip. As a result, synchronization between video and audio is lost for the right clip. Correct way to implement this transition would be to extend left clip to the right and right clip - to the left and then apply "fade-out/fade-in" transitions to overlapped portions.

Using audio mixing room suggested to BillyR also does not produce required effect. I ended up with placing un-linked audio clips on two separate timelines, extending them to the right/left as described above and placing "constant power" transitions to overlapped portion of both clips. That's how I get really CONSTANT power audio transition, keep audio/video synchronization and do not change video. The cost is 4 clip movements each of them can result in accidental error. Why this can not be done in one click as in other editors?
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CJC [Avatar]
Member Private Message Joined: Dec 12, 2013 12:32 Messages: 53 Offline
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Ok, I think I know exactly what you need. Let me know if you don't fully understand and would like pictures.

Put your two clips in a track together. Apply an overlap audio transition. This should be doing what you want, except you didn't want the video fade.

Click on the right clip. Unlink video and audio.

Click on the video portion in the right clip. Drag the left side of the clip to the point where the transition ends. This will delete the video fade.

This will now give you a silence free audio fade from clip to clip with no video transition.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 24. 2014 15:29

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asadov [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 06, 2014 19:42 Messages: 23 Offline
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Quote: Ok, I think I know exactly what you need. Let me know if you don't fully understand and would like pictures.

Put your two clips in a track together. Apply an overlap audio transition. This should be doing what you want, except you didn't want the video fade.

Click on the right clip. Unlink video and audio.

Click on the video portion in the right clip. Drag the left side of the clip to the point where the transition ends. This will delete the video fade.

This will now give you a silence free audio fade from clip to clip with no video transition.


O.K. this may work (although I think that additional moves will be necessary to restore audio/video sync). However, it also involves multiple clicks and potentially dangerous (loss on audio/video sync) movement of un-linked video clip. Other editors (e.g. Ulead, Premier Pro) do this using one click.

So:

Am I the only one PD12 user who wants to have this type of audio transition?

Is there any way to hear opinion from PD12 developers about this?
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BillyR
Senior Member Private Message Location: Southeast US Joined: Jun 19, 2013 14:33 Messages: 156 Offline
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Out of curiosity I tried using those audio fades, but they're too involved for me, and appear to be needlessly complex as well as the potential for the sync problems asadov mentions. I'm with him that a one-click audio fade and crossfade would be much better but we have to work with the program we have (or in my case go back to brand "N"), and the method I described in my post of 21/03/2014 12:02:27 works fine for me. Dell Precision 7510 Laptop
Windows 7 Pro 64-bit | Intel(R) XEON(R) CPU E3-1505M v5 @2.80 GHz
RAM: 32 GB
Windows Experience Index 7.5
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CJC [Avatar]
Member Private Message Joined: Dec 12, 2013 12:32 Messages: 53 Offline
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Quote:
Quote: Ok, I think I know exactly what you need. Let me know if you don't fully understand and would like pictures.

Put your two clips in a track together. Apply an overlap audio transition. This should be doing what you want, except you didn't want the video fade.

Click on the right clip. Unlink video and audio.

Click on the video portion in the right clip. Drag the left side of the clip to the point where the transition ends. This will delete the video fade.

This will now give you a silence free audio fade from clip to clip with no video transition.


O.K. this may work (although I think that additional moves will be necessary to restore audio/video sync). However, it also involves multiple clicks and potentially dangerous (loss on audio/video sync) movement of un-linked video clip. Other editors (e.g. Ulead, Premier Pro) do this using one click.

So:

Am I the only one PD12 user who wants to have this type of audio transition?

Is there any way to hear opinion from PD12 developers about this?


That is incorrect. There is no potential for movement of unlinked clips. Unless you do it wrong. You're not moving the video clip in relation to the audio. You're only changing which one starts playing first. You're only trimming the video.. not moving it. It literally took me 5 seconds to do this transition. If you're worried about accidentally getting the audio out of sync later on, just make sure to relink the audio and video afterwards.

Here.. I even made you a video real quick. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tihs-IkwSlo&feature=youtu.be
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asadov [Avatar]
Newbie Private Message Joined: Mar 06, 2014 19:42 Messages: 23 Offline
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote: Ok, I think I know exactly what you need. Let me know if you don't fully understand and would like pictures.

Put your two clips in a track together. Apply an overlap audio transition. This should be doing what you want, except you didn't want the video fade.

Click on the right clip. Unlink video and audio.

Click on the video portion in the right clip. Drag the left side of the clip to the point where the transition ends. This will delete the video fade.

This will now give you a silence free audio fade from clip to clip with no video transition.


O.K. this may work (although I think that additional moves will be necessary to restore audio/video sync). However, it also involves multiple clicks and potentially dangerous (loss on audio/video sync) movement of un-linked video clip. Other editors (e.g. Ulead, Premier Pro) do this using one click.

So:

Am I the only one PD12 user who wants to have this type of audio transition?

Is there any way to hear opinion from PD12 developers about this?


That is incorrect. There is no potential for movement of unlinked clips. Unless you do it wrong. You're not moving the video clip in relation to the audio. You're only changing which one starts playing first. You're only trimming the video.. not moving it. It literally took me 5 seconds to do this transition. If you're worried about accidentally getting the audio out of sync later on, just make sure to relink the audio and video afterwards.

Here.. I even made you a video real quick. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tihs-IkwSlo&feature=youtu.be

I agree - it works as you described. However, there are two issues:
Minor: "Central" point of audio transition is shifted to the left from the seam between videoclips. In other words, at the end of the left videoclip you hear full volume of audio that belongs to right clip.
Major: Right clip is shifted to the left by amount of time corresponding to the transition duration (you can see this at time=4sec of your YOUTUBE clip). As a result, if you have another clip after you right clip, there will be a gap between them that you have to eliminate (that what I meant by "additional movements" in my previous comment). Besides, you truncate the right videoclip by amount of time equal to the transition duration that can be a minor nuisance.

So, i suggest a modification of your method, free of the second drawback:
1) un-link right clip.
2) move audio portion of right clip to empty audio track.
3) Extend this audio-clip to the left by duration of transition.
4) Move audio-clip back to initial audio-track. Select "overwrite" in the pop-up window.
5) PD12 automatically inserts audio transition with "overlap" option.
6) Link audio and video tracks of the right clip.
As a result, right video-track is not moved; however, middle point of audio transition is still shifted to the left which can be a minor nuisance.

Again I would like to emphasize (hoping that PD12 developers will read this blog) that all these 6 steps could be programmed into convenient one-click transition option.
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