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Mixed frame rates and ouput settings for Blu Ray
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AndrewRacz1 [Avatar]
Member Private Message Location: Cardiff Joined: Mar 18, 2014 18:36 Messages: 52 Offline
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I have a 2 hour project.. cameras are sony camcorder that recorded at 24.8MPBS 1920 x 1080 50fps

I also have a sony action cam recorded at 23.9 Mpbs at 1920 x 1080 at 59.94 fps

and a contour camera recorded at 13.2 Mpbs 1920 x 1080 at 29.97 fps.

I have a ps4 player and want the highest quality output on blu ray.

Can I output at 1920 x 1080 at 60p? and is H264 better than MPEG2.

What should the timeline settings be and what output format should I use as I don't see 1920x1080p 60fps in the drop down menu.

Can I create a custom file, (what parameters should I use) and could I then burn with IMGburn.

If I create a file for usb what settings should I use and as the file size is about 25GB using 1920 x 1080 60p when rendered at H.264 and what would the read data transfer rates have to be for the usb stick

Thanks
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Jimbo223 [Avatar]
Member Private Message Joined: Apr 25, 2012 02:59 Messages: 95 Offline
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The quality depends on the codec and amount of compression used.
The difference between MPEG2 and H264 is that they are just different containers.
It's what you put into those containers that makes a difference (the codecs you use to save the video).
I prefer MPEG2 over H264 because H264 has on occasions created artifacts (blips/dirt/scratches) on the final run.
However, if you need to make it fit to a single disk for Blueray, then play around with H264 to see what you get.
But I find MPEG2 produces better results.

It's more the bit-rates that affect file sizes, so as you increase bit-rates, the files which go on Blueray or DVD become bigger and the image quality generally gets better (general thumb rule). Ultimately it all depends on what the image quality of footage it is you start with... (crap in -> crap out).

For example: it is possible to fit up to 3hrs of video on a single 4.7Gb DVD with space for a menu (I've done it) but the image quality is closer to what you get from a compressed video like on Youtube, slightly under standard definition with lots of wobbly bits.

Frame rates:
29.97fps is generally NTSC based (US, some others).
This usually follows up to the 60fps like you have.

25fps is generally PAL (UK/Europe, some S. America).
This usually follows up to the 50fps stuff.

The frame size (picture width/height) can look different from PAL and NTSC (because of non-square pixels).

My understanding is that Hi-Def video is actually 29.97fps or 25fps. (someone else might be able to explain this better or correct me if I'm wrong). The doubled frame rate is how the AVHCD footage is created, a bit like interlaced video where two frames interact to create a single image.

Ideally, you should edit to a spec that is for your region unless you plan to share it with people abroad.
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AndrewRacz1 [Avatar]
Member Private Message Location: Cardiff Joined: Mar 18, 2014 18:36 Messages: 52 Offline
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Thanks for the reply, I understand that the higher bit rates usually improves the visual quality, I still am confused why some video editing software allows for 1920 x 1080 60p rendering to blu ray and version 12 doesn't even though the usual standard now is 24p. Most blu ray players will play 60p which is a non standard complaint file. Part of my video was recorded at 60p so want to maintain that, Most new players including PS4 will allow video playback from usb (PS4 is usb3), what should my final output settings be and is there anyway to get 1920 x 1080 60p onto a bluy ray disk. Searched the forums and had a look at multiavchd software but couldn't find any answers and multi avchd was too complicated for me!
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Jimbo223 [Avatar]
Member Private Message Joined: Apr 25, 2012 02:59 Messages: 95 Offline
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Hi Andrew,
I'm sure you would find editors that could handle the split frames (30/30 @ 60fps).
The big old editors of yesteryear like Avid could handle splitting interlaced video to each frame at 29.97 or 25 (depending on where you lived) and probably still can. It gave you more precision where to cut. Everything now, it seems, is progressive.

Give PD a go.
I think you'll find the 60fps issue is only superficial.
Keep compression to a minimum (best image) unless you want to put it online, then use H264.
Keep frame size to 1920x1080, unless you want to post it online.

As an additional thought, here's a snippet from Wikipedia which I just found (link below):
Often, the rate is inferred from the context, usually assumed to be either 50 Hz (Europe) or 60 Hz (USA), except for 1080p, which denotes 1080p24, 1080p25, and 1080p30, but also 1080p50 and 1080p60.

A frame or field rate can also be specified without a resolution. For example 24p means 24 progressive scan frames per second and 50i means 25 progressive frames per second, consisting of 50 interlaced fields per second. Most HDTV systems support some standard resolutions and frame or field rates. The most common are noted below (see the link I added below). High-definition signals require a high-definition television or computer monitor in order to be viewed. High-definition video has an aspect ratio of 16:9 (1.78:1). The aspect ratio of regular widescreen film shot today is typically 1.85:1 or 2.39:1 (sometimes traditionally quoted at 2.35:1). Standard-definition television (SDTV) has a 4:3 (1.33:1) aspect ratio, although in recent years many broadcasters have transmitted programs "squeezed" horizontally in 16:9 anamorphic format, in hopes that the viewer has a 16:9 set which stretches the image out to normal-looking proportions, or a set which "squishes" the image vertically to present a "letterbox" view of the image, again with correct proportions.


link Scroll down to technical details.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 20. 2014 11:06

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AndrewRacz1 [Avatar]
Member Private Message Location: Cardiff Joined: Mar 18, 2014 18:36 Messages: 52 Offline
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Thanks for the reply, the reason I wanted to view at 60p was that I've just come back from skiing and one of the cameras used was a sony action cam set at 60fps at 1920 x 1080, this was a firmware update from the original firmware which was only 30fps. the difference was large... the same footage (un edited and viewed raw) was much smoother and that's why I wanted to maintain the 60fps from source to viewing (via editing and rendering). Some people prefer 24p some don't the same as H.264 as opposed to MPEG2 (taking into account bit rates).

I'm still no further in viewing at 1080p 60p on blu ray or via usb.

You said that keep compression to a minimum...what settings would you suggest? would the bit rate for say AVHC be around 25Mbs

On a side note I said that PS4 support different file formats...they don't...but the ps3 does as long as you load the file onto the hard drive first.
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Jimbo223 [Avatar]
Member Private Message Joined: Apr 25, 2012 02:59 Messages: 95 Offline
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You've got a few choices:

Plan A:
You can either discard the 29.97 footage completely from the main project and stick to the 50/60 you have.
That way you won't have a video which changes quality every other clip or so.
You could keep those bits for later as a 'special feature' section on the disk.

Plan B:
Your lowest frame rate is 29.97 (NTSC) so base everything on this rate if you want to include this lower rate footage.
(Ideally you're thinking of 25fps if you're in the UK to be compatible with BD (Blueray) players, unless your audience has multi-region players but don't gamble on it).

Space on BD disk permitting, you could then have a 'special features' bit that shows just the exciting parts of 60/50 footage.

With a mixed bag of frame rates, use the lowest common denominator (in your case 29.97 but actually working at 25 because of your region). If, as you say, the quality is much better at 60, you can't UP the quality of footage that came from a lower rate (29.97) but you can always bring the footage with higher rates down (60 and 50 -> 29.97).

---

Each project is different.
If you can stick all your footage on a single disk at 25Mb/s that's great but be prepared to either sacrifice that down to 18 or much lower or make your film shorter to maintain image quality if your intention is to fit it all on a single disk.

To start with, try the settings that PD has as default.
Use this as your starting point.
Check this against the Blueray disk space available.
Tweak up the settings but stick with MPEG2 (IMO) or test with H264 until you start to notice those gremlins.

If you have a high end burner that can burn high capacity BD disks just make sure that your high capacity BD disk will play on a normal player. Not all players can read those high capacity disks, so stick to the lowest common denominator. You are working with big files. Just remember that to maintain image quality, use very little compression and keep the bit rates up. It is a juggling act.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Mar 21. 2014 05:47

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Jimbo223 [Avatar]
Member Private Message Joined: Apr 25, 2012 02:59 Messages: 95 Offline
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Just a quick one:

There's a frame rate setting in PD 12 if you look at Preferences > General.
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