Quote: Kerrigan is wrong (apart from the meta data)
This elitist attitude and misinformation is not helping anyone!
Atmos uses audio objects and spatial coding.

I know how it works, and that additional data uses additional disk space.
I see Atmos becoming interesting with the upcoming larger blu-ray disks (for 4K), but on the limited space of the actual disks, I see it more like a liability than an advantage. Atmos will just reduce the general quality of audio (and possibly video too) for the majority.
I rather have a high quality 7.1 lossless track with highest possibly quality picture than reduced quality sound and picture because disk space is used for Atmos.

And it's just my opinion, like everybody I have the right to have one, no need to become rude and insulting. My collection: http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?u=194008&action=showcategory&category=1&categoryid=7

I think youll find if you read back through the thread it's you and your friends who are rude and insulting whilst at the same time spreading misinformation.
I'm just making an observation; but I digress.
Atmos audio doesn't take up more disc space. I'd love to see where you got that info from. It uses the audio that's in the 7.1 stream and just sends it though a different speaker. It doesn't have 4 extra audio tracks for the height channels like you are implying.
There is no loss I audio quality like you are implying.

Haswell 4770k watercooled @4.6 ghz. 16GB RAM,
Nvidia 980TI GTX, Marantz AV7702mk2, Apogee Duet, 3x Adam A77X, 4x Mackie MR5's, 4X Mackie CR4
Panasonic PT-AT6000e projector, 120" fixed projector screen, Panasonic ST30 50" TV.

Quote: Atmos audio doesn't take up more disc space.

Additional data doesn't take additional disk space?
Yeah sure. I've been working for 20+ years as software engineer, and I have yet to find a miracle technology that permits such magic. My collection: http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?u=194008&action=showcategory&category=1&categoryid=7

I should say a significant amount of data that would cause quality loss. Meta data is in the kilobits not gigabytes.
Hence the audio objects. You think dolby atmos has 32 audio channels incase you go for a 32 channel setup?
Read the link I posted under the section 'how do we fit all the info onto a Blu Ray disc' then get back to me. Haswell 4770k watercooled @4.6 ghz. 16GB RAM,
Nvidia 980TI GTX, Marantz AV7702mk2, Apogee Duet, 3x Adam A77X, 4x Mackie MR5's, 4X Mackie CR4
Panasonic PT-AT6000e projector, 120" fixed projector screen, Panasonic ST30 50" TV.

Quote:

Quote: Atmos audio doesn't take up more disc space.

Additional data doesn't take additional disk space?
Yeah sure. I've been working for 20+ years as software engineer, and I have yet to find a miracle technology that permits such magic.

The new ffmpeg binaries can strip the surplus Atmos data, to turn what you have into a regular TrueHD stream again (with the Atmos data lost for now).

Anyone know when powerdvd will be implementing atmos?
Arguing about whether you want it or not is not what this thread is about.
If it's going to be 7 months away with powerdvd 15 I'll look elsewhere
Haswell 4770k watercooled @4.6 ghz. 16GB RAM,
Nvidia 980TI GTX, Marantz AV7702mk2, Apogee Duet, 3x Adam A77X, 4x Mackie MR5's, 4X Mackie CR4
Panasonic PT-AT6000e projector, 120" fixed projector screen, Panasonic ST30 50" TV.

I think depends what you mean by implement. Do you mean: pass an Atmos bitstream to a suitable receiver\processor or undertake the decoding to x channels of LPCM etc.

I wouldn't have though the former would present too much of a probem. As to the latter, I can't see it happening in the short\medium term. There would likely be expensive licences to pay, complex set-up and a lot of processing power involved

The latter! I think windows might have to support more than 7.1 probably aswell.
It won't take that much processing power. It's not like mixing a song in logic or cubase etc. more like rendering a computer game. Haswell 4770k watercooled @4.6 ghz. 16GB RAM,
Nvidia 980TI GTX, Marantz AV7702mk2, Apogee Duet, 3x Adam A77X, 4x Mackie MR5's, 4X Mackie CR4
Panasonic PT-AT6000e projector, 120" fixed projector screen, Panasonic ST30 50" TV.

Quote: Atmos audio doesn't take up more disc space. I'd love to see where you got that info from. It uses the audio that's in the 7.1 stream and just sends it though a different speaker. It doesn't have 4 extra audio tracks for the height channels like you are implying.

Sorry, Billy7, but you are thoroughly confused, on several fronts. For starters, Atmos data is only 'in' the 7.1 stream insofar it's packed on top of it, as it were, as metadata. As such, the entire stream naturally uses more disc space. In a recent interview With Dolby, their spokesman said:

Q: How much extra disc space will an Atmos track take up on a Blu-ray? Are studios likely to have to choose between either Atmos or 3D in order to maintain a decent video bit-rate, or can a Blu-ray accommodate both Atmos and 3D on the same disc without too much compromise?

A: This depends on the complexity of the content itself. Our initial goals are to minimize overhead to 20% or less. We don’t expect video bitrates to be compromised [due to] the addition of the Dolby Atmos soundtrack on a Blu-ray disc.

So, about 20% it is (and no magical 0%, as you were suggesting). Reading your earlier statements, it's clear your 0% confusion stems from your (erroneous) thinking that Atmos is just some sort of clever upmix. It isn't. An Atmos processor *can* take a standard 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack and upmix it to the additional speakers you have installed, btw, but that's just like upmixing stereo to 5.1 channels.

The recommended minimum layout is 7.1.4 (the .4 are your ceiling speakers), but Atmos is capable of scaling up to more speakers if you install them. The Blu-ray version of Atmos can even support up to 24.1.10 (!) discrete speakers.

Quote: I think depends what you mean by implement. Do you mean: pass an Atmos bitstream to a suitable receiver\processor or undertake the decoding to x channels of LPCM etc.

I wouldn't have though the former would present too much of a probem. As to the latter, I can't see it happening in the short\medium term. There would likely be expensive licences to pay, complex set-up and a lot of processing power involved

Instead of just parsing several static audio channels, Atmos uses what they call 'pinpoint localization in the soundfield.' The way I understand that to work, is that Atmos channel data is more like spacial coordinates: aka, the Atmost processor is being told at what 3D location the sound should be placed, and the Amp will calculate, on the fly, how to distribute this over the connected speakers (hence why Atmos can support up to 24.1.10 discrete speakers).

'Decoding' to a fixed LPCM channel setup may therefore be quite difficult (until someone maybe manages to emulate a perfect Atmos processor).

Actually the minimum layout is 5.1.2 for Atmos.

However, while in HTPC processing is possible, I think it will require hardware, OS and PDVD14 modifications for it to happen. Don't hold yiour breath.

Quote:
Sorry, Billy7, but you are thoroughly confused, on several fronts. For starters, Atmos data is only 'in' the 7.1 stream insofar it's packed on top of it, as it were, as metadata. As such, the entire stream naturally uses more disc space. In a recent interview With Dolby, their spokesman said:

Q: How much extra disc space will an Atmos track take up on a Blu-ray? Are studios likely to have to choose between either Atmos or 3D in order to maintain a decent video bit-rate, or can a Blu-ray accommodate both Atmos and 3D on the same disc without too much compromise?

A: This depends on the complexity of the content itself. Our initial goals are to minimize overhead to 20% or less. We don’t expect video bitrates to be compromised [due to] the addition of the Dolby Atmos soundtrack on a Blu-ray disc.

So, about 20% it is (and no magical 0%, as you were suggesting). Reading your earlier statements, it's clear your 0% confusion stems from your (erroneous) thinking that Atmos is just some sort of clever upmix. It isn't. An Atmos processor *can* take a standard 5.1 or 7.1 soundtrack and upmix it to the additional speakers you have installed, btw, but that's just like upmixing stereo to 5.1 channels.

The recommended minimum layout is 7.1.4 (the .4 are your ceiling speakers), but Atmos is capable of scaling up to more speakers if you install them. The Blu-ray version of Atmos can even support up to 24.1.10 (!) discrete speakers.

I wouldn't say I was thoroughly confused! I admit I appear wrong about the disc space it takes up, but not about how it is implemented, how it scales and how many channels you can have. I also don't think it is some kind of clever upmix. It's a whole new way of rendering audio in realtime. More like a game than the classic audio channel route. The only reason they seem to be adding atmos into the 7.1 stream at the moment is in order to make it backwards compatable.
If you wouldn't mind posting a link to that interview as it is some info I haven't come across before. Atmos takes up 20% more of what btw? The bluray? The 7.1 audio space on the disc? It won't be significant anyway in comparison to the space 4k will take up!
He also said it wouldn't affect bitrate for the video.
In the future I imagine to render like a game. No individual channels just flags for every sound. It won't take much processing at all! I think you under estimate the power of a modern pc. If I can play a game in 7.1 being rendered in real time (gfx and sound) I'm sure a modern cpu can pan a few audio objects around while playing back a pre rendered video.
Anyway good find with the info, share the link so we know you aren't just blowing smoke out of your arse!
Edit: this link points out the 7.1 stream is folded down from the atmos sound track and is actually different to a dedicated 7.1 audio track!
http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/dolby-atmos-home-demo/
Also says studios can take languages out for different regions at their discretion to make up for any additional space needed for atmos.
Also audio remains lossless and video doesn't lose bitrate. Win win!
Haswell 4770k watercooled @4.6 ghz. 16GB RAM,
Nvidia 980TI GTX, Marantz AV7702mk2, Apogee Duet, 3x Adam A77X, 4x Mackie MR5's, 4X Mackie CR4
Panasonic PT-AT6000e projector, 120" fixed projector screen, Panasonic ST30 50" TV.

Quote:
The only reason they seem to be adding atmos into the 7.1 stream at the moment is in order to make it backwards compatable.

Yes. Amps are supposed to disregard the audio metadata; which is why this can work with current equipment. Basically, the 7.1 is just regular (static) channel info, and the 'pinpoint localization in the soundfield' is only done for the .4 Atmos remainder. I suspect we'll see true Atmos streams one day, with no discrete channel info at all (and only the spatial coordinates). Like I said, I think decoding, for your HTPC needs, may prove quite difficult (if you want the data translated to a discrete, fixed channel set-up).

If you wouldn't mind posting a link to that interview as it is some info I haven't come across before. Atmos takes up 20% more of what btw? The bluray? The 7.1 audio space on the disc?

Here it is: http://www.highdefdigest.com/blog/dolby-atmos-followup-answers/

He also said it wouldn't affect bitrate for the video.

He said they "don’t expect video bitrates to be compromised [due to] the addition of the Dolby Atmos soundtrack on a Blu-ray disc." 'Not compromised' is a bit vague, though. When do we call video bitrate not compromised? He probably just means they think the bitrate won't be materially impacted. And, indeed, adding a 3D version of the movie on the same disc will affect bitrate far worse.

In the future I imagine to render like a game. No individual channels just flags for every sound. It won't take much processing at all! I think you under estimate the power of a modern pc. If I can play a game in 7.1 being rendered in real time (gfx and sound) I'm sure a modern cpu can pan a few audio objects around while playing back a pre rendered video.

I do not underestimate the power of the modern PC. Rather, I think it will be quite an uphill struggle trying to write an Atmos emulator; for one, because I don't expect Dolby to release the specs to the general population. So, what I'm saying is, don't expect libav to encode/decode Atmos any time soon. So, ppl will either need an official Atmos Amp, or use something like PowerDVD (You are gonna support it, right, Cyberlink?!). But Atmos over, say, XBMC, decoded to a set of discrete channels will be far off, I fear. Since 7.1 is the max LPCM currently support anyway, for now just using the ffmpeg trick (just discarding the surplus Atmos data) will suffice.

I don't agree with your last statement.
Many av receivers have added support with a firmare update so it can't be that hard to implement. Bluray players support it too.
Also my soundcard drivers allow me to route my inputs and outputs anywhere (including adat out) for 100's of tracks for use in a daw.
It's just essentially panning info and as cyberlink pay for dolby licensing anyway (I assume) they should already have the license to do it.
I would have thought it would have been on pc way before being supported in firmare updates for AV receivers.
Don't cyberlink read their own forums, a estimated release date would be nice to know.
Thanks for the link! Haswell 4770k watercooled @4.6 ghz. 16GB RAM,
Nvidia 980TI GTX, Marantz AV7702mk2, Apogee Duet, 3x Adam A77X, 4x Mackie MR5's, 4X Mackie CR4
Panasonic PT-AT6000e projector, 120" fixed projector screen, Panasonic ST30 50" TV.

Quote: Kerrigan is wrong (apart from the meta data)
This elitist attitude and misinformation is not helping anyone!
Atmos uses audio objects and spatial coding.
Read it on their site.
http://blog.dolby.com/2014/09/dolby-atmos-goes-cinemas-living-rooms/
the first software player to support this new format will be getting my money.
I use an RME sound card which is better quality than most amps, through balanced outputs going to active studio monitor speakers.
I'm going to add extra outputs to my RME fireface via ADAT to get as many speakers in my room as possible.
To the people who can't get their heads around people not using receivers/decoders; if you go the audio interface route you are not forced to upgrade receivers/decoders/amps every time a new format (like atmos) comes out or a new HDMI spec comes out (like HDMI 2) etc.
An update from a cyberlink employee to give a time scale on when we should expect atmos support would be appreciated.
I'll be posting something similar on other home theatre application forums.
Thanks!

Excellent Post!!!!! I have a spare interface myself (but I'm looking at getting one of the new Motu interfaces)! You are correct! First software player that has Atmos - has my money, even if I don't convert immediately - its nice to know that I can (I'm capable of supplying 8 more channels of amplification to my system as it stands aready)!

Quote: I don't agree with your last statement.
Many av receivers have added support with a firmare update so it can't be that hard to implement. Bluray players support it too.
Also my soundcard drivers allow me to route my inputs and outputs anywhere (including adat out) for 100's of tracks for use in a daw.
It's just essentially panning info and as cyberlink pay for dolby licensing anyway (I assume) they should already have the license to do it.
I would have thought it would have been on pc way before being supported in firmare updates for AV receivers.
Don't cyberlink read their own forums, a estimated release date would be nice to know.
Thanks for the link!

You're using ASIO for your RME right? Your tracks are not limited by your OS at all, only by the number of physical connections available on your RME sound card. Off topic, are you using the Hammerfall?

ASIO vs bitstreaming... you really can read all kind of funny crap on these forums.
ASIO does NOTHING for a fully digital bitstreamed audio track, be it mono, 2.0, 5.1, 7.1 or atmos.
ASIO is for musicians. My collection: http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?u=194008&action=showcategory&category=1&categoryid=7

Quote: ASIO vs bitstreaming... you really can read all kind of funny crap on these forums.
ASIO does NOTHING for a fully digital bitstreamed audio track, be it mono, 2.0, 5.1, 7.1 or atmos.
ASIO is for musicians.

Excuse me...I wasn't talking about bitstreaming. Those of us that use softdecoders do not bitstream our content to a receiver or prepro. ASIO is being used by many of us that have transformed our PC's into high-end prepros, ASIO is a great way to set up an active digital crossover (using an amp on each driver - such as the woofer, mid, and tweeter - each having its own amp). And yes I'm also a musician - and the RME...it's a musicians sound card, and a DAW is a digital audio workstation. You can do this http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201366how-to-replace-your-home-theater-pre-pro-with-a-htpc/. Although he uses a competitors product - there are plenty of programs that we use to process our audio, such as Audiolense XO, Dirac Live, the Ultimate EQ etc. You may be in IT, but you are showing that you lacking in computer audio knowledge. Go over to the computeraudiophile.com or to thewelltemperedcomputer.com to get a gander of what's being done.

I have the RME fireface UC for my home theatre PC.
It has 6 Balanced outputs and 1 unbalanced headphone jack.
I route the L,R into the sub, and use the sub crossover for bass mangement, I also send the LFE channel through the L and R in RME totalmix software (which is awesome BTW) the have centre SR SL and RL out of the other balanced outputs and the RR out of the unbalanced headphone output.
It's using all the analogue outputs but works very well.
(The benefit of balanced outputs is you don't get ground loops inherent with active speaker setups, amongst other things)
My monitors are active (amp built in), as this is a better solution I find, If you spec'd up a passive speaker with matching (bi-amped) amplifiers and a dedicated hardware crossover you will be paying a lot of money to get even close to the sound quality of a mid range active setup.
The RME has superior DAC's to most (possibly all!) home theatre decoders and also has one of the most stable word clocks on the planet. This makes a huge difference in sound quality too.
The RME also has ADAT so I can add a lot more balanced outputs (perfect for atmos) as required.
A decoder is more expensive, doesn't have balanced outputs (unless you spend a lot of money) the routing isn't as flexible (check out RME total mix) it isn't expandable (RME has ADAT) , isn't future proofed (no having to buy new receivers/decoders/amps for 3d, 4k, DTS-HD, atmos, HDMI 2.0 (or whatever hoop they want you to upgrade to next) with the RME, Just good old fashioned balanced TRS/XLR outputs and USB, so it's also cheaper in the long term and short term.
The question is why are people buying all this consumer equipment when you can have a lot better setup that will last a lot longer?
Who would want to bitstream when powerDVD does the decoding for you and the audiointerface can do what it does best (digital to analogue conversion)
I also use an apogee setup for my mac home studio, but that's another thread.
It's the powerDVD channel limit that is restricting. + there is an option for 'use windows speaker configuration' so it would be nice to get an update from microsoft too.
If these receivers and decoders have firmware updates to enable atmos power DVD should have them very soon I would hope.
ASIO is for low latency recording/monitoring and is used for music production, it won't be utilised in powerDVD and the likes.



Haswell 4770k watercooled @4.6 ghz. 16GB RAM,
Nvidia 980TI GTX, Marantz AV7702mk2, Apogee Duet, 3x Adam A77X, 4x Mackie MR5's, 4X Mackie CR4
Panasonic PT-AT6000e projector, 120" fixed projector screen, Panasonic ST30 50" TV.

And those fancy musician devices don't give you a secure audio path, resulting in HD/24 bit sound being output as SD/16 bit by PowerDVD, TMT or any other Blu-Ray software...

Source:
http://www.cyberlink.com/support/product-requirements.do?ProductId=1&prodId=1&prodVerId=1102

HD Audio Compatible Sound Card and Codec List

Realtek ALC669 (support up to 192kHz/24bit 6 channels)
Realtek ALC670 (support up to 192kHz/24bit 6 channels)
Realtek ALC885 (support up to 192kHz/24bit 2-channels or 96kHz/24bit 4-8 channels)
Realtek ALC889 (support up to 192kHz/24bit 2-channels or 96kHz/24bit 4-8 channels)
Realtek ALC892 (support up to 192kHz/24bit 8 channels)
Realtek ALC898 (support up to 192kHz/24bit 2-8 channels)
Realtek ALC899 (support up to 192kHz/24bit 2-8 channels)
Realtek ALC1150 (support up to 192kHz/24bit 2-8 channels)
VIA EnvyHD Vinyl VT1818S codec (support up to 192kHz/24bit 8-channels)
VIA EnvyHD Vinyl VT1828S codec (support up to 192kHz/24bit 8-channels)
VIA EnvyHD Vinyl VT2020 codec (support up to 192kHz/24bit 8-channels)
Auzentech X-Fi HomeTheater HD (supports HDMI 1.3a bit-stream lossless pass-through)
AMD Radeon HD 5000 and 6000 Series graphics cards supporting lossless pass-through
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 400 Series graphics cards supporting lossless pass-through
Intel Core i3/i5/i7 with integrated audio and graphics

With any other output method, the HD sound from Blu-Ray will be downgraded. My collection: http://www.blu-ray.com/community/collection.php?u=194008&action=showcategory&category=1&categoryid=7

That is not true. My setup plays DTS 7.1 master audio fine.
You do know dts MA is just a 24bit (if you're lucky) 48khz (usually unless it's a music blu Ray) wav in a wrapper?
Nothing special, you're full of misinformation aren't you!
My RME will do 32bit floating point 192khz.
Get your facts right! Haswell 4770k watercooled @4.6 ghz. 16GB RAM,
Nvidia 980TI GTX, Marantz AV7702mk2, Apogee Duet, 3x Adam A77X, 4x Mackie MR5's, 4X Mackie CR4
Panasonic PT-AT6000e projector, 120" fixed projector screen, Panasonic ST30 50" TV.