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Produced Video is much lower quality than original & UK DV plays incorrect field order.
PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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Hi,
I've got a lot of reservations about PowerDirector's inability to retain the quality of the original source clips. I'm editing my old DV footage, and to put PD to the test I captured one small clip from my DV camera. Playing back the AVI, and doing nothing else you can see that the wrong field is being displayed first, upper instead of lower. It can't be changed in PD9. Then if you place this clip in the timeline, with no effects or anything else applied, and export to AVI again, all in the same format precisely, a second degredation occurs. You'd kind of expect that the field reversal would be counteracted when reversed a second time, but this is not the case.

My clip was of a train travelling at slow speed past the camera UK PAL 25fps DV 16:9 Anamorphic. After the first capture stage the carriage windows judder as they pass by quite a noticeable amount. After the second pass through PD's codec (simulating output to AVI or DV cam following edit,) the result is totally unacceptable. I had been trialling PD before I bought it with movie with relatively little motion in it so I didn't notice. Now feeling rather cheated, because I can't use this software, which is a shame because I really like the features of PD. SVRT makes no difference. Something's still being switched/broken. WMP, Quicktime, and VLC media players all suffer in some way or another on playback. Either terrible pic, stalling or freezing if shuttling, on all three of my computers (PC not at fault here).

So I've tried out two other products, MAGIX Movie Edit Pro and Sony Vagas Movie Studio, neither of which exhibit any loss at all. Despite my fond memories of PD, I think I shall be seeking a refund. Can't see updates being rolled out very frequently in the support section. Before you ask, I have the latest update. The ouput from these all play out in the mainstream players.

I've seen a number of picture quality postings in this forum, where I think that the advice given has been a little US centric, and it seems to me that PD does not handle the subtle country specific differences in their respective formats properly. Very short sighted not to sense or allow the user to change the field priority for instance.

I mean this with my very best respect for all you experienced editors, when replying to a member with a problem, may I remind you to consider that the problem could be regional in nature. Not directly aimed at anyone specifically, but just an observation in the forum.

I have attached below a sample output. To see the effect properly you need to watch the movie through a DV cam connected to a monitor or large TV capable of PAL-I 25fps interlaced anamorphic 16:9.
WMP deinterlaces the image and so a difference is hard to detect. VLC media player clearly shows the offset fields, and any scrubbing through the movie results in freezing or crashing. Note the pixellation in the trees and the clarity of the fella taking a photograph. The movie was exported with SVRT, and no pre-render took place so it SHOULD be as I first captured and produced it. (I've had to shorten it you see to get it past my ISP). For those that don't have a UK TV set, or a means of export to a DV device, I have also attached a recording of the effect by videoing the TV set output with my camcorder. This really shows the problem.

The original clip displays none of these problems despite being re-edited twice through Vegas.

 Filename
Power Director Train.avi
[Disk]
 Description
Captured & Produced Clip from PD9
 Filesize
8666 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
343 time(s)
 Filename
Original Train.avi
[Disk]
 Description
Original Train Clip
 Filesize
9194 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
334 time(s)
 Filename
Train Viewed on TV.avi
[Disk]
 Description
Image recorded of TV playback by camcorder
 Filesize
8302 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
650 time(s)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Aug 18. 2011 07:19

Regards,
James.
PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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Today, just before my post was removed from a similar titled topic, a falla suggested that there is a button marked 'More Features' where you can change the field order in PD in the storyboard screen. I hadn't spotted that. I tried this and you can only do it on a clip by clip basis, very slow.

However there was new hope, but only momentarily, because the options have absolutely no effect on the output at all!! I'm very convinced this is a field order problem. I've seen it so many times before in Premiere. The self detect button does return 'lower field first' however. Now here in, I think, lies the problem. Orphaned program code? Regards,
James.
Seaslug [Avatar]
Newbie Joined: Aug 17, 2011 04:19 Messages: 7 Offline
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Hi James
Theres no need to change the field order for each clip it is set for the whole project. Just made a dvd of your clips there is no problem with the field order, it's lower field first. Also have looked at the two clips by placing them in the timeline and splicing them together at the same point and scrubbing over the joint, they appear to be identical, although i can't compare them with your orginal tape the dvd is comparable with with any of my own footage burned to dvd. Hope this helps. Dave
MarcinB [Avatar]
Newbie Location: Poland Joined: Jun 15, 2011 14:23 Messages: 22 Offline
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Hi!
To be honest, both files looks identical to me. I received different results when using WMP and DIVX player, but the difference was identical for both clips, so I would say that DIVX Player was not good at playing your clip. Quicktime failed to get correct aspect ratio for the original clip
Br
Marcin
PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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Hi Folks. Please observe that I've already stated that you won't see a difference unless the clips are played out on a United Kingdom standard television set not on your computer. This is because computers don't use interlaced video, and so they merge the two interlaced fields together. Look up TV interlacing in WIKI if you don't understand what I mean.

The purpose of providing the clips was so that the proffesionals can recreate the problem with a view to Cyberlink providing a patch. If you don't have UK equipment, don't bother to download the clips.


DAVE: Are you adjusting field order in the storyboard view because the button is not enabled until you click on a clip. If you highlight more than one clip the button is once again disabled. Hence you can only change one source clip at a time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Aug 18. 2011 05:24

Regards,
James.
Seaslug [Avatar]
Newbie Joined: Aug 17, 2011 04:19 Messages: 7 Offline
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Hi James
I use uk equipment. I spliced both clips into the same project and burned a dvd to replicate a potential field order problem the two clips are identical when played on a tv, the field order is fine you would know if it was wrong straight away if there is movement in the frame.

Ps I'm adjusting field order in timeline mode. Select one clip change that then check the others they should all be the same.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Aug 18. 2011 05:46

Dave
PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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Thanks Dave.
By making a DVD you have run the clips through the MPEG2 codec. The DVD MPEG standard is Upper field first or progressive scan, hence its rerendered, removing the effect. You need to play it out to a DV camcorder. I have also tried this and found it often corrects. I'm going to try and video my TV monitor so the guys and girls in the US can see the problem. Suspect they'll be some extra artifacts introduced by doing this but it might serve to show the general problem. Regards,
James.
PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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Folks, I've now added a clip showing the Movie played back on a UK TV set. See original post at top. Regards,
James.
Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Hi James,
Best of luck with your experiments, I have moved away from DVavi "low resolution footage". 10 years ago my camera was near top of the tree, today the cheapie HD's beat it.

The 1080 60i 3D footage I played on my UK HD TV was beautiful, crisp and gorgeous, along with the edited & rendered footage I played.

As I mentioned, best of luck with your experiments. The PD DVavi module is unlikely to change.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at Aug 18. 2011 08:58

PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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Thanks Dafydd,
I'll be buying an HD model as soon as I can afford it. In the mean time, if there is to be no upgrade to the DV module, i'll use to Sony suite, then perhaps return to PD when I get my HDV camera. Perhaps I should hang on to PD for this reason, or I could borrow a friend's HDV cam and test it out in this mode. Sounds like the problem is limited to DV in PD! Regards,
James.
Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Hi,
The only reason I have interlaced footage on my system is to do with the 3D camera I'm using and it only records in interlace. It is the only way 3D cameras work at the moment.

If you eventually go 2D HD then dump interlace and stick with progressive footage. It is what the Pros use and what (I use) editors use here.

HDV is a tape format that has been superseded by HD (clips saved to either an internal Hard disk drive (HDD) or a removable SD card). Please make sure you're up to date with the spec of the latest cameras. You can ask members, remember they'll recommend their model

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Aug 18. 2011 14:38

PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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Thanks for the useful info. Yep, definately want to be rid of tapes. Agree Progressive scan is the way to go. I'll certainly be doing my homework before I buy. A very useful website is 'Steve's Digicams'. Very diligant camera reviewer. Gonna see if Sony and Panasonic still have the edge over the competition just as they did in the early millenia.

Thanks again for all your help. Regards,
James.
Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Hi again James,
Tip: Obtain sample footage from the cameras you're interested in and test your PC with them.

Either obtain the samples from the manufacturers website or ask members for some.

If you post a diagnostic file members will help assess your PC's readiness for HD and may suggest improvements or look in awe of what you have.

Post the request etc as a new thread.

Look up Part B: http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/7958.page

PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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You really are in a 'falling over' helpful mood today! Consider it done. Cheers! Regards,
James.
PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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Just one query. How am I to asess just 10Mb limit of HD footage? That's my ISP attachment limit. What will that be, just a few frames?!! Streaming perhaps? ISP gives 10Mbps. Regards,
James.
Dafydd B [Avatar]
Senior Contributor Joined: Aug 26, 2006 08:20 Messages: 11973 Offline
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Hi James,
Multiple placement of a video in a track.
Multiple placement of the video in all the tracks.

You will soon see where the "fall-over" point of your PC is using up to 100 tracks, with video layered on top of each other.
You could test the rendering capability with each. You can examine every sample using MediaInfo.

PowerBox [Avatar]
Newbie Location: United Kingdom Joined: Aug 11, 2011 13:35 Messages: 17 Offline
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Dafydd,
I meant how am I going to be able to recieve sample clips from members? The attachment file size limit 10MB, about 2secs of MiniDV about what? 10 frames and a splash of Dolby on AVHD? !!!

Wasn't being too serious here.....


Regards,
James.
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