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bug : AAC audio encoder in MP4 file sounds very bad
Julien Pierre [Avatar]
Contributor Joined: Apr 14, 2011 01:34 Messages: 476 Offline
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This was filed with Cyberlink as CS001515180 .

It has been reproduced by Cyberlink on 9/23, but no news of any fix since.



Test case :
1) download the project from my google drive at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1eSSO_7gwqeUFZBUzFQSFJUeFk/view?usp=sharing
2) unzip it in its own directory
3) ignore profile.ini in the zip file
4) start PowerDirector 14
5) open the "trim" project
6) click produce
7) click H264
8) click MP4
9) click "default" under profile type
10) select MPEG-4 640 x 480/30p (6 Mbps) . This profile uses AAC 128 kbps audio
11) make sure Fast video rendering technology is disabled
12) click ... to call the file aac128.mp4
14) click start to render
14) play the aac128.mp4 file, in any media player you want.
It will sound like bad AM radio, or a scratchy LP .
15) create a new H264/MP4 profile with the + icon, and set AAC audio bit rate to 384 kbps
16) click ... to call the new file aac384.mp4
17) repeat rendering
18) play the aac384.mp4 rendered file. it still sounds horrible, even though maybe not quite as much as aac128
19) click m2ts
20) click ... and call the next file dd256.m2ts
21) repeat rendering with H264/M2TS/default/ AVC 720 x 480/60i (8 Mbps) . This profile uses Dolby Digital 256 kbps
22) play dd256.m2ts . It sounds good, very close to the original clip.
23) create a new H264/M2TS profile with the + icon, and set D audio bit rate to 1284 kbps
24) click ... to call the new file dd128.m2ts
25) repeat rendering
26) play dd128.m2ts . It still sounds better than even aac384.mp4 .
I think when DD 128 kbps sounds better than AAC 384 kbps, there is something wrong with your AAC encoder.
27) just for kicks, click the musical notes in the produce window, and select "MP4 audio" to generate an audio file
28) select profile 192 kbps
29) click ... to call the new file aac192.m4a
30 click start to rener
31) play aac192.m4a . It sounds better to my ears than aac384.mp4 .
But still not as good as dd256.m2ts
32) repeat steps 28-31 to generate aac384.m4a .
This file still sounds better than aac384.mp4, though still not as good as dd256.mp4 .
I have encoded plenty of music before with AAC and never gotten any results of this kind.
I think there must be some bug in the AAC encoder you are using.
At 384 kbps, it should sound very close to the audio in the original PCM clip.

To make things easier, I have also stored all the renderings I talked about in this test case at :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1eSSO_7gwqeeTdIdXhGTE0xNlk/view?usp=sharing MSI X99A Raider
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Andrew1234 [Avatar]
Newbie Joined: Sep 17, 2015 13:04 Messages: 6 Offline
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Any update on this?

I too have noticed poor audio quality when converting my videos. I reported this to CL and was told to buy another one of their products! I have professional recording gear and am a musician. The bad audio is caused when converting to AAC in PD14.
Julien Pierre [Avatar]
Contributor Joined: Apr 14, 2011 01:34 Messages: 476 Offline
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Andrew,

I got the following answer yesterday from support :
"In regards to your concern, I would like to inform you that we used the spectrum to analyse the source media and the produced media, but cannot get noise from the provided media's. Please refer to the attached snapshots.

About the audio quality of the AAC384.mp4, we compared the file with the AAC384.m4a and found the sample rate of AAC384.mp4 is 24KHz but the AAC384.m4a is 48KHz. That could be the main reason of the auido quality of the mp4 is worse than the m4a. But we are not able to produce a mp4 with 24KHz sample rate only in PowerDirector 14 in our lab.

The profile of the PowerDirector in the PC might has been polluted by some unknown reason. I would suggest you to follow the steps to generate a new default profile and produce another AAC 384 MP4 to check again.

1. Go to the folder C:\Users\[user name]\AppData\Roaming\CyberLink\PowerDirector\14.0\
2. Rename the file “Profile.ini” or just cut it to somewhere else.
3. Launch PowerDirector 14 and a new profile will be generated automatically."

I can't make much sense of the spectrum analyzer screenshots they attached. But I don't need a spectrum analyzer to hear the noise. So, at this point, it looks like Cyberlink did not reproduce it. I will try again and see if I missed something - but mostly likely this ticket will be reopened.

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PepsiMan
Senior Contributor Location: Clarksville, TN Joined: Dec 29, 2010 01:20 Messages: 1054 Offline
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hello, Julien

no problems with rerendering to your suggestions...



PepsiMan

p.s.

i've also downloaded the files and they all sounded same to me...

i didn't hear any scratchy vinyl LP sounds. yup, it just proved myself that i'm not a musician.
 Filename
aac384.mp4
[Disk]
 Description
trim LPCM 48Khz-1536Kbps to MP4 AAC 48Khz-384Kbps
 Filesize
12247 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
311 time(s)
 Filename
aac128.mp4
[Disk]
 Description
trim LPCM 48Khz-1536Kbps to MP4 AAC 48Khz-128Kbps
 Filesize
11838 Kbytes
 Downloaded:
309 time(s)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at Oct 29. 2015 00:56

'no bridge too far'

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Andrew1234 [Avatar]
Newbie Joined: Sep 17, 2015 13:04 Messages: 6 Offline
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Julien,

Thanks for the update. I submitted a ticket. I'll let you know what their response is.

The main issue for me is: The audio looses its clarity. I run an online teaching business, so instrument audio quality is extremely important.
Julien Pierre [Avatar]
Contributor Joined: Apr 14, 2011 01:34 Messages: 476 Offline
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Quote: hello, Julien

no problems with rerendering to your suggestions...



PepsiMan

p.s.

i've also downloaded the files and they all sounded same to me...

i didn't hear any scratchy vinyl LP sounds. yup, it just proved myself that i'm not a musician.




I downloaded your 2 rendered files - they very much reproduce the problem - especially the aac128 version . I'm sorry that you are not able to hear the difference. It's extremely obvious to me. It might be more noticeable if you try listening with headphones rather than speakers.

Hearing loss can also be a factor. Harpsichord contains a lot of high frequencies, which become more difficult to hear as one ages.

Cyberlink indicated that one of the files I rendered had an effective sampling rate of 24 kHz, which means the highest frequency that can be reproduced is 12 kHz, per the Nyquist theorem. Harpsichord contains frequencies higher than that. MSI X99A Raider
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Julien Pierre [Avatar]
Contributor Joined: Apr 14, 2011 01:34 Messages: 476 Offline
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Quote: Julien,
Thanks for the update. I submitted a ticket. I'll let you know what their response is.



Thanks. Please submit a test case of your own if you have one.


The main issue for me is: The audio looses its clarity.



Yes, this is the main issue. The only workaround I have found is to avoid encoding video files that include AAC in PowerDirector.

If you encode either in LPCM where allowed, or in Dolby Digital, then this issue does not show. MSI X99A Raider
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Asus PB238 23" HD (portrait)
ynotfish
Senior Contributor Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9977 Offline
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Hi Julien & all -

I easily produced the issue rendering to MPEG-4 with AAC audio. Then - I'd expect to hear a difference between LPCM & AAC. My understanding that using AAC is a compromise to ensure it's compatible with ??? (yes - limited understanding).

PepsiMan - at first I had difficulty hearing the difference. Hearing loss is definitely a factor here! Using headphones made it more obvious but the clincher was when I lined all the produced files up - split the lot at various points - removed all but one audio track from each section and played it through, switching from LPCM to AAC128 to AAC256 etc. It was as if the frequency range was being "squished" - less bottom & top ends. Some of the spectrum analysers I used confirmed that.



Still - I wouldn't expect AAC to ever sound as good as LPCM... like MP3 vs. WAV...

Cheers - Tony
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Julien Pierre [Avatar]
Contributor Joined: Apr 14, 2011 01:34 Messages: 476 Offline
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Quote:
I downloaded your 2 rendered files - they very much reproduce the problem - especially the aac128 version . I'm sorry that you are not able to hear the difference. It's extremely obvious to me. It might be more noticeable if you try listening with headphones rather than speakers.


So, I looked at this again more in detail. I had only listened at your 2 files, but didn't compare them to any others, or to the original.

The original wasn't extremely high quality to begin with - it was recorded with the FDR-AX33 camera's built-in microphone, which is satisfactory, but not professional quality. But the file was encoded in LPCM so it didn't further degrade the audio that was capture.

Your aac128.mp4 file sounds the same as the aac128.mp4 file I produced - sounds scratchy and LP to me.

On the other hand, your aac384.mp4 file however sounds much better than my aac384.mp4 file . Yours has a 48 kHz sampling rate in the header, but mine indeed has 24 kHz sampling rate only. I had not noticed that before.

I just installed the latest PowerDirector 2251 and I cannot recreate another aac384.mp4 file with 24 kHz sampling rate anymore, just as Cyberlink can no longer do so in their lab.

I am not sure if the patch is why I could on the day I filed the bug, and I can't now. Cyberlink didn't indicate fixing anything in this area in the last 2 beta patches.

It could be related to the fact that I'm running a different version of the nVidia drivers today than I was running. I didn't specify in my bug report whether I had used the software or hardware encoder. I believe it was software.

I just made a few more attempts and can't get the issue to show again. Maybe I'll try backleveling PD and the nVidia drivers this weekend and see if I can recreate it.

As far as audio quality, AAC and DD are both lossy codecs, so they are not expected to sound as good as the original.

However, the original LPCM bit rate was 1536 kbps - so going down to 384 kbps is only a 4:1 compression rate. That's a pretty low compression rate . Usually, one cannot tell the difference between the original and 4:1 lossy compression in a blind listening test. And in fact, I cannot hear a difference either between the original and the aac384.mp4 that Pepsiman posted. I was just misremembering how the quality of the original recording when I posted my comments earlier. I normally record the audio separately in much better quality, but that was not done in this test case - it was the camera audio.

Going from 1536 kbps (original) to 128 kbps is 12:1 compression, and the difference with the original usually becomes fairly obvious especially in high frequencies if you have a good audio reproduction system, or headphones.

As far as I can tell, the issue is not happening now on my system, so I won't reopen the bug with Cyberlink unless I can see it happen again. And if I do, I will save the specific profile in profile.ini and send it to Cyberlink. MSI X99A Raider
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ynotfish
Senior Contributor Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9977 Offline
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Julien Pierre -

I just checked back through the various files I produced in your tests. Every single one has a sampling rate of 48KHz, & I had duplicated the process using both the 2019 & 2214 (beta) builds.

Cheers - Tony
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PepsiMan
Senior Contributor Location: Clarksville, TN Joined: Dec 29, 2010 01:20 Messages: 1054 Offline
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Quote:

I downloaded your 2 rendered files - they very much reproduce the problem - especially the aac128 version . I'm sorry that you are not able to hear the difference. It's extremely obvious to me. It might be more noticeable if you try listening with headphones rather than speakers.


at the Balanced Rock, Arches NP, my daughter could hear the very low humming noise but i couldn't. i had to concentrate and block out the other noises, then i could hear the very low humming noise she was hearing...


Quote:
As far as I can tell, the issue is not happening now on my system, so I won't reopen the bug with Cyberlink unless I can see it happen again. And if I do, I will save the specific profile in profile.ini and send it to Cyberlink.


that is always nice to hear.

hope Andrew, too applied beta 2221 patch and good to go.



PepsiMan

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Oct 29. 2015 19:13

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Andrew1234 [Avatar]
Newbie Joined: Sep 17, 2015 13:04 Messages: 6 Offline
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How do I render a video using LPCM instead of AAC? I am rendering using MP4 - H.264 AVC.

I clicked 'check for updates' and nothing appears. Where is this beta patch? Does it solve the issue?

I downloaded a trial of Corel Video Studio and it produced a video without the poor audio issue. I'd like to get this solved instead of switching to a different editor.
PepsiMan
Senior Contributor Location: Clarksville, TN Joined: Dec 29, 2010 01:20 Messages: 1054 Offline
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Quote: Where is this beta patch? Does it solve the issue?



https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/46097.page

Julien is happy. laughing



PepsiMan 'no bridge too far'

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Andrew1234 [Avatar]
Newbie Joined: Sep 17, 2015 13:04 Messages: 6 Offline
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I installed the beta patch, but I do not here an audio improvement.

How do I render a video using LPCM instead of AAC?
Andrew1234 [Avatar]
Newbie Joined: Sep 17, 2015 13:04 Messages: 6 Offline
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I figured out how to do LPCM via QT and I also tried Windows Media. Both of these produce a video without audio quality issues, but the video quality is bad. Does anyone else have an answer for the AAC issue? I will be purchasing another editor and asking for a refund if this isn't resolved. I didn't spend 100$ to have these issues and a lack of help from technical support.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 05. 2015 20:28

All vodi
Senior Contributor Location: Canada Joined: Aug 21, 2009 11:24 Messages: 1431 Offline
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I suggest you begin looking elsewhere. The Cyberfolks are only targeting consumer users. It can take several versions and releases to improve basic features. Some of us have waited for years for some of them : read the forums for confirmation. Win 10, i7
Julien Pierre [Avatar]
Contributor Joined: Apr 14, 2011 01:34 Messages: 476 Offline
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Quote: I installed the beta patch, but I do not here an audio improvement.

How do I render a video using LPCM instead of AAC?


Andrew, you can only choose LPCM for a very limited set of profiles in PowerDirector, unfortunately.

You will need to create a custom profile to do so.

1. Go to produce.

2. Select H.264 AVC

3. Underneath, select M2TS or MKV - not MP4

4. In "profile name/quality", select a profile with the desired resolution and bit rate, then click +

5. Enter a name for your profile

6. Go to the "Audio" tab

7. under "Audio compression", select LPCM

8. click OK

9. click start to produce the file

Later on when you want to render to this profile again, you will need to select "custom" under "profile type", and then select this new profile you created

BTW, I checked all the other file types - only H.264/M2TS, H.264/MKV and Quicktime allow creating profiles with uncompressed audio in LPCM.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at Nov 05. 2015 21:33

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Andrew1234 [Avatar]
Newbie Joined: Sep 17, 2015 13:04 Messages: 6 Offline
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Thank you Julien! You are more helpful than the support staff here. I really appreciate the help!
ynotfish
Senior Contributor Location: N.S.W. Australia Joined: May 08, 2009 02:06 Messages: 9977 Offline
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Quote: Andrew, you can only choose LPCM for a very limited set of profiles in PowerDirector, unfortunately.


This *table* probably shows the reason for that. It's not just a PowerDirector thing.

Cheers - Tony
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Julien Pierre [Avatar]
Contributor Joined: Apr 14, 2011 01:34 Messages: 476 Offline
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Tony,



Quote:
Quote: Andrew, you can only choose LPCM for a very limited set of profiles in PowerDirector, unfortunately.


This *table* probably shows the reason for that. It's not just a PowerDirector thing.



Many entries in the table are simply wrong or out of date.

For example, the Sony FDR-AX33 camcorder I had for a few weeks created some XAVC S .MP4 files with LPCM audio in them (and high bit rate H.264 video). I still have some footage files that it created.

Yet, PowerDirector does not allow creating any MP4 files with LPCM, either in H.264, HEVC (H.265) or XAVC S. This is clearly a product limitation in PowerDirector.

Also, according to the second table on that page, AVI and MPG formats support either PCM or LPCM, yet PowerDirector does not let you create AVI or MPEG-2 files with PCM or LPCM audio.

It looks like Windows Media WMV files can also have PCM audio in them . See :

http://www.machetesoft.com/how-to/extract-audio-from-video.html

But again, Powerdirector does not allow PCM audio in Windows Media.

Remember that PCM/LPCM are lossless/uncompressed audio, and are the easiest to support from a software point of view.

In reality, every single file video file format that Powerdirector supports is capable of containing PCM, but Cyberlink only chose to provide an option to encode PCM in a few of them.

Furthermore, PowerDirector only allows one bit rate for PCM, which is 1536 kbps. This corresponds to 16-bit stereo 48 kHz PCM audio.

If you want PCM audio with 24-bit audio, or more than 2 channels, or a 96 kHz sampling rate, you are simply out of luck with PowerDirector. This is one area where PowerDirector falls far short of professional video software. MSI X99A Raider
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